Received: from mail-ee0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]:50344)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncCNuStaWoDxCEiviBBRoEoYEGfQ@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1T6gzW-0003eL-TV; Wed, 29 Aug 2012 05:03:37 -0700
Received: by eeke49 with SMTP id e49sf221074eek.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Wed, 29 Aug 2012 05:03:19 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent
         :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type
         :content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=d+yhIQh35mLBqKguvJRxZz7WB/NwcIfCjiw9T+Oa6CY=;
        b=roOC/5u1rNCs7Y1Av4jl/1zfcNllPWs1EgTWAy7MlQCmcTg4tm3zk4N48dHXyqG8FU
         BQ2PUZeG1NGQGr8kSSWCTVi6u+2uO3pGe0vqOT7+vNiM0oKPPeb0sZBxxj0Ku8nGqwuu
         EgLsPCAL4RRZEaSXjiqE3x+pRm1sbrWjZJMvCYUBSjD9aTV10vOfi21X7XKAnr6HjXNm
         r3ZRI3psUC58O7htTG49LZpGONKU2fksXFXF2jMmunpkwZgJVlPgUPEN3lkBo994JDeH
         Gnh5kGXaqZzUkrBbLLZ8oQT6onVM56MzLTGuUJdPgr+MC82nwi2UcfB5BqOqr7Gkmqvq
         MPRg==
Received: by 10.216.56.16 with SMTP id l16mr26333wec.38.1346241796160;
        Wed, 29 Aug 2012 05:03:16 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.14.198.197 with SMTP id v45ls479042een.3.gmail; Wed, 29 Aug
 2012 05:03:15 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.14.176.196 with SMTP id b44mr1290156eem.4.1346241795311;
        Wed, 29 Aug 2012 05:03:15 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.14.176.196 with SMTP id b44mr1290153eem.4.1346241795238;
        Wed, 29 Aug 2012 05:03:15 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-ee0-f53.google.com (mail-ee0-f53.google.com [74.125.83.53])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d5si33152458eep.0.2012.08.29.05.03.15
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Wed, 29 Aug 2012 05:03:15 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.83.53;
Received: by eekb47 with SMTP id b47so212666eek.26
        for <lojban@googlegroups.com>; Wed, 29 Aug 2012 05:03:15 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.14.199.67 with SMTP id w43mr1618481een.33.1346241795125;
        Wed, 29 Aug 2012 05:03:15 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.77] (87-194-76-177.bethere.co.uk. [87.194.76.177])
        by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i8sm13502262eeo.16.2012.08.29.05.03.12
        (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Wed, 29 Aug 2012 05:03:13 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <503E04FC.8060604@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 13:03:08 +0100
From: And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.28) Gecko/20120306 Thunderbird/3.1.20
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] "Any" and {ro}
References: <44e6fb5c-91f3-47ba-817c-8560c9c6ca14@googlegroups.com> <502B9E61.8060808@gmx.de> <aa901417-c099-410c-a41a-61cca53dbc81@googlegroups.com> <502BA634.3030007@gmx.de> <CAPAJj9+DbXzr2xW3ZTLaY=+wtEQ4r-M-WfHKLxKvj=VLiLdfHw@mail.gmail.com> <502C50EB.3090704@gmail.com> <7e604d79-8ecd-4690-bc39-bf48b601d46f@googlegroups.com> <5036D423.5050101@gmail.com> <c823d5bd-eb00-448d-92b8-5e9703392eca@googlegroups.com> <5038CEC3.4050708@gmail.com> <c3a1363a-5094-4633-86c0-38c6c383665f@googlegroups.com> <5039204B.1060401@gmail.com> <325f818f-76ce-4f3c-b0c0-03dc4db2e9d8@googlegroups.com> <503B8ED4.200@gmail.com> <f9e39122-b072-4aa4-8aab-86657bcaebb0@googlegroups.com> <9019D4E1-8993-4AF4-BD70-AC76E5A9620F@yahoo.com> <eeef465e-467b-428e-9d7b-f95baf39ee8c@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <eeef465e-467b-428e-9d7b-f95baf39ee8c@googlegroups.com>
X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.53 as permitted sender)
 smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:googlegroups-manage+1004133512417+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.7
X-Spam_score_int: -6
X-Spam_bar: /

la gleki, On 28/08/2012 05:07:
> Yes, if we create ad-hoc cmavo {su'ai} it will look like
> da su'ai - any (doesn't matter what exactly apples I need)
> da su'ainai - some specific apples
>
> 1.- Where are you going?
> 2.- To buy some food [some specific food, namely apples but I haven't tel=
l you yet]
> 3.- Well, I can buy food for you myself
> 4.- No, I need some specific food. Apples.
> 5.- Ah, I see.
>
> In 2. we could use {da}/{cidja}.
> In 4. we could use {da su'ainai}/{cidja sua'inai}

The ambiguity of (2) is specific to English. It shouldn't arise with Lojban=
, setting aside all the uncertainty about the rules for deriving logical fo=
rmulas from Lojban setences (because those uncertainties would be fixed by =
adding new official interpretation rules, not by adding new cmavo).

la gleki, On 28/08/2012 17:39:
> OK. Please everyone translate the following sentences.
> 1. "I'm gonna eat three apples from that basket" [some specific apples, n=
amely the red one. the yellow one and the green one but I'm too lazy to men=
tion it]

I suspect that {ba} does not create irrealis environments, so using {ba'oi}=
 instead [-- I mean the future-oriented mu'ei, if I've misremembered the fo=
rm]:

a. "ci plise mi ro ba'oi se citka"
b. "mi ro ba'oi citka le ci plise"
c. "mi ba citka le ci plise"

(a--c) don't mean the same thing, but are consistent with (1).

I assume "ci plise" is still equivalent to "ci da poi plise"

> 2. "I'm gonna eat any three apples from that basket"

"mi ro ba'oi citka ci plise"

> 3. "Give me any three apples from the basket"

"e'o do dunda ci plise mi"

> 4. "Give me three apples from the basket" [not known whether I need some =
specific apples or not]

I don't think there's a way of expressing that ambiguity. For the reading w=
here not just any apples will necessarily do:

"ci plise e'o do mi se dunda"
"e'o do dunda le ci plise mi"


--And.

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.