Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]:49262)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncCMDl9o3BFBC4mviBBRoEYHTYtA@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1T6hXL-0003we-G3; Wed, 29 Aug 2012 05:38:33 -0700
Received: by yhoo21 with SMTP id o21sf529301yho.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Wed, 29 Aug 2012 05:38:17 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date
         :message-id:references:to:x-mailer:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type
         :content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=5Z5FgxN+/w86l0azv9FTyFhRN6bysoviHZpwiq6bH64=;
        b=op/6uGlclbGfgOAd6vFTGTT14RJgyTJcihFRG1IpSE2imw1nzAN5hFtmPyEvI1bRmm
         PSsxIwNRHtnvmqEM9HdGEmhmtpew5x2qY6+Tfu4YAjIidcWPvB7PsEIiBSXJr+lFweLa
         fd1U2z77S79txBn5NbAk05GhiomjMdSlutlzHN0vCNMvHIn/YlOUouu6Vx4L/v6EKWa1
         X3SJcJ5AD8Ywjp4weUfp8nIuTt149eRotHSZol5AN6MMQfKWUEq8lAJ9JJ0tR0QUdLt+
         XSGKY40YpNQNG0VjU1GixiKO7YjQiKVPrrMqYXzeKCQ5HEt29d7JzN2elo9J5Xa0PlWa
         cjOA==
Received: by 10.50.183.200 with SMTP id eo8mr364666igc.6.1346243896989;
        Wed, 29 Aug 2012 05:38:16 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.50.34.170 with SMTP id a10ls5156633igj.1.canary; Wed, 29 Aug
 2012 05:38:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.50.197.233 with SMTP id ix9mr700927igc.5.1346243896499;
        Wed, 29 Aug 2012 05:38:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.50.197.233 with SMTP id ix9mr700926igc.5.1346243896487;
        Wed, 29 Aug 2012 05:38:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-ie0-f179.google.com (mail-ie0-f179.google.com [209.85.223.179])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id gv6si711089igb.0.2012.08.29.05.38.16
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Wed, 29 Aug 2012 05:38:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of michael.everson@gmail.com designates 209.85.223.179 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.223.179;
Received: by ieje13 with SMTP id e13so199366iej.24
        for <lojban@googlegroups.com>; Wed, 29 Aug 2012 05:38:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.43.103.193 with SMTP id dj1mr430261icc.2.1346243896302;
        Wed, 29 Aug 2012 05:38:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [10.59.24.31] ([205.201.170.136])
        by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n5sm11541960igw.13.2012.08.29.05.38.14
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Wed, 29 Aug 2012 05:38:14 -0700 (PDT)
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084)
Subject: Re: [lojban] la .alis.
From: Michael Everson <michael.everson@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <f0d41ed9-5f75-4e3c-bf5a-3b63e8ff9d9e@googlegroups.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 05:38:12 -0700
Message-Id: <56366734-722A-4DD2-A6DC-D2879CBD2905@gmail.com>
References: <2320FCB7-86FE-4E30-9F24-DAD6E40024D7@evertype.com> <925d17561003280714y30d5eb1fo19b9f97eb6902eaa@mail.gmail.com> <4BAF7446.6070008@gmail.com> <20100328192909.GG6600@digitalkingdom.org> <925d17561003281729t30ffbfcbge6209c18f8d01d36@mail.gmail.com> <06B70573-D388-4FA0-8F64-9BB9FFAFB2EC@gmail.com> <CAMKwHj1YNhig2vt7rK9CfPMvPipg+aVmDmHK24-=2PWMVLsvfA@mail.gmail.com> <CAO7tK2dL906FpuLYXRVr1FWYkCSgvKQsp27Ye+tZA9dGnBwXsg@mail.gmail.com> <f0d41ed9-5f75-4e3c-bf5a-3b63e8ff9d9e@googlegroups.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084)
X-Original-Sender: michael.everson@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 domain of michael.everson@gmail.com designates 209.85.223.179 as permitted
 sender) smtp.mail=michael.everson@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:googlegroups-manage+1004133512417+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/)
X-Spam_score: 0.0
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

On 28 Aug 2012, at 13:41, iesk wrote:

> Btw, I think that {=ABlu =85 li=92u=BB} looks better than {lu=AB =85 =BBl=
i'u}. I think that =ABSwiss=BB looks better than =BBGerman=AB, and =BBGerma=
n=AB looks better than =BBSwedish=BB, but as you can see, different people =
do things in different ways and are used to different styles.

I don't propose to use {lu=AB =85 =BBli'u}... I propose to use {lu =AB=85=
=BB li'u}.

> Regarding for Mr Christopher Plummer=92s hypothetical performance: I thin=
k he could do {=ABlu =85 li=92u=BB} just fine, as French narrators apparent=
ly have no problems with {=AB Quotation quotation, says the speaker, quotat=
ion quotation. =BB}.

I propose to use {=ABQuotation quotation,=BB says the speaker, =ABquotation=
 quotation.=BB} regardless of the French practice; but even so:

=AB Je crains bien de ne pouvoir pas m=92expliquer, =BB dit Alice, =AB car,=
 voyez-vous, je ne suis plus moi-m=EAme. =BB

> In some books, a single opening quotation marks the beginning of a whole =
block of dialogue, which ends with a single closing quotation mark. In othe=
r books, there is an opening quotation mark at the beginning of every singl=
e line of text, and just one closing mark at the end.

What, in French? Well, that wasn't Carroll's practice in an ycase.=20

> Many people are used to =91technical=92 (character-exact) quotation today=
, but that=92s not the only way to use quotation marks. In Lojban, especial=
ly, we can take some liberties because, supposedly, real confusion cannot a=
rise.

Then there shouldn't be any difficulties in taking conservative Victorian "=
liberties". :-)

> I think the style adopted for http://alis.lojban.org/ is good.

To me each paragraph is still just a wall of words, though there are some q=
uotation marks and parentheses there. I don't see it as admirable either in=
 terms of functionality or Latin-script aesthetics.

On 28 Aug 2012, at 14:38, Jonathan Jones wrote:

> My personal preference would be to not have foreign symbols at all. I hav=
e seen Lojban written without punctuation, and I have seen Lojban written w=
ith punctuation, and between the two, with is ugly as sin. I find such punc=
tuation distracting and repugnant.

I am sure some of you will repudiate my Alice. But some of you may find it =
interesting. I think it's weird though to have this discussion. I am remind=
ed of what John said a while back:

On 28 Mar 2010, at 13:00, John Cowan wrote:

> We have all sorts of orthographies for Lojban by now, from Cyrillic to Te=
ngwar, and nobody says that they are "not Lojban".  I think I understand wh=
y some people don't like a traditional-Latin orthography: it's an instance =
of "the uncanny valley", just enough like what you're used to to be upsetti=
ng.  But the very fact that the two orthographies are isomorphic shows that=
 the essential Lojbanity of the text is preserved.
>=20
> (Which is to say nothing about the fact that the text isn't exactly strai=
ght down the middle semantically.)


Michael

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.