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Subject: Re: [lojban] Revising mu'ei and CAhA once again. Possible worlds.
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But this logic: "all" and "some" belong to a very different system from "ma=
ny", as do "possible" and "necessary" from "probable".  {mu'ei} may open th=
e way to some combinations, but hasn't yet, remaining an unexplained idiom.=
  As for the various levels, I still don't see the point of them nor how th=
ey work, so I can't comment on their usefulness at any level.
What {da'i} was meant to do is classically done with conditional constructi=
ons, suggesting it should be in a class with conjunctions -- presumably sen=
tential.  I think it would function more transparently, in logic and in lan=
guage, as paragraph marker, setting aside a space -- perhaps many sentences=
 long -- in which to deal with an alternate world.  In either case, UI is t=
he wrong selma'o.

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 31, 2012, at 11:48 AM, la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

>=20
>=20
> On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 10:34:20 PM UTC+4, And Rosta wrote:
> Gleki Arxokuna, On 14/08/2012 18:23:=20
> > I wish Robin started using {mu'ei} again but=20
> > it's really when usage decides. May be human brain just doesn't want=20
> > to deal with A-level at such level of precision. May be {ka'e/na=20
> > ka'e/ka'ei/bia'i} or even {bi'ai} is enough.=20
>=20
> The evidence of natural language is to the contrary. The could/probably/w=
ould contrast is the some/most/all contrast.=20
>=20
> > The use of {da'i} is interesting. For a logical language it's=20
> > completely deplorable, because there's a complete mismatch between=20
> > the lexicosyntactic form and the logical form, and no explicit rule=20
> > about how to get from one to the other -- it works by mere stipulated=
=20
> > magic. But it caught on among those impatient to be actively using=20
> > the language, and nicely illustrated the fundamental incompatibility=20
> > between a loglang and a language governed by the principle of "let=20
> > usage decide".=20
> >=20
> > May be we can determine the most common usage of {da'i} and redefine=20
> > it from the point of view of A/M/F-level scheme? May be we should=20
> > perform analysis of Lojban corpus and tatoeba sentences?=20
>=20
> {da'i} is in UI, isn't it? So it doesn't have the right grammatical prope=
rties.=20
> It is in UI. If I "discovered" A and F levels why not bind {da'i} to A-le=
vel i.e. make it a synonym of {ka'e} but without changing the grammar and s=
elmaho
> and {da'inai} would be "equal" to {ca'a}.
>=20
>=20
> The purest ways to proceed would be either (1) to define things so that t=
hey're logical and regular, regardless of usage, i.e. basically just implem=
ent all xorxes's proposals, or (2) to treat the language as an inchoate nat=
lang, a la Lojbab, and abduce grammar out of usage as linguistics of natlan=
gs does.=20
>=20
> --And.=20
> --=20
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups=
 "lojban" group.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/=
lojban/-/OETsc6alUy8J.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr=
oups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb=
an?hl=3Den.

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<html><body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>But this logic: "all" and "some" belon=
g to a very different system from "many", as do "possible" and "necessary" =
from "probable". &nbsp;{mu'ei} may open the way to some combinations, but h=
asn't yet, remaining an unexplained idiom. &nbsp;As for the various levels,=
 I still don't see the point of them nor how they work, so I can't comment =
on their usefulness at any level.</div><div>What {da'i} was meant to do is =
classically done with conditional constructions, suggesting it should be in=
 a class with conjunctions -- presumably sentential. &nbsp;I think it would=
 function more transparently, in logic and in language, as paragraph marker=
, setting aside a space -- perhaps many sentences long -- in which to deal =
with an alternate world. &nbsp;In either case, UI is the wrong selma'o.<br>=
<br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On Aug 31, 2012, at 11:48 AM, la gleki =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.co=
m</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><br=
><br>On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 10:34:20 PM UTC+4, And Rosta wrote:<blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-lef=
t: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">Gleki Arxokuna, On 14/08/2012 18:23:
<br>&gt; I wish Robin started using {mu'ei} again but
<br>&gt; it's really when usage decides. May be human brain just doesn't wa=
nt
<br>&gt; to deal with A-level at such level of precision. May be {ka'e/na
<br>&gt; ka'e/ka'ei/bia'i} or even {bi'ai} is enough.
<br>
<br>The evidence of natural language is to the contrary. The could/probably=
/would contrast is the some/most/all contrast.
<br>
<br>&gt; The use of {da'i} is interesting. For a logical language it's
<br>&gt; completely deplorable, because there's a complete mismatch between
<br>&gt; the lexicosyntactic form and the logical form, and no explicit rul=
e
<br>&gt; about how to get from one to the other -- it works by mere stipula=
ted
<br>&gt; magic. But it caught on among those impatient to be actively using
<br>&gt; the language, and nicely illustrated the fundamental incompatibili=
ty
<br>&gt; between a loglang and a language governed by the principle of "let
<br>&gt; usage decide".
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; May be we can determine the most common usage of {da'i} and redefi=
ne
<br>&gt; it from the point of view of A/M/F-level scheme? May be we should
<br>&gt; perform analysis of Lojban corpus and tatoeba sentences?
<br>
<br>{da'i} is in UI, isn't it? So it doesn't have the right grammatical pro=
perties.
<br></blockquote><div>It is in UI. If I "discovered" A and F levels why not=
 bind {da'i} to A-level i.e. make it a synonym of {ka'e} but without changi=
ng the grammar and selmaho</div><div>and {da'inai} would be "equal" to {ca'=
a}.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: =
0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>The purest ways to proceed would be either (1) to define things so that=
 they're logical and regular, regardless of usage, i.e. basically just impl=
ement all xorxes's proposals, or (2) to treat the language as an inchoate n=
atlang, a la Lojbab, and abduce grammar out of usage as linguistics of natl=
angs does.
<br>
<br>--And.
<br></blockquote>

<p></p>

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</div></blockquote></body></html>

<p></p>

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