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Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 08:21:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Cc: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Is there any real diffrence between hope (.a'o) and
 desire (.au)?
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On Saturday, September 1, 2012 6:44:34 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
>
> I suppose the idea here is {sei} as a sort of stage direction, the usual 
> "Alice said" supplemented now by comments about Alice's presumed state of 
> mind.  Using this for {a'o} and the like seems misguided, because 1) they 
> are not metalinguistic, but part of the speech stream -- not someone els'e 
> remark, but the speakers expression; 2) they are not truthvalued, as the 
> {sei} comments are.
>

Isn't {sei} the same as loglandic {{soi crano}} etc.?

>
>
>   ------------------------------
> *From:* triliyn <trillio...@gmail.com <javascript:>>
> *To:* loj...@googlegroups.com <javascript:> 
> *Sent:* Saturday, September 1, 2012 8:37 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Re: Is there any real diffrence between hope 
> (.a'o) and desire (.au)?
>  
> I've always thought of {sei} as introducing a comment about the text 
> without regard for the meaning of the text. For example, you could say 
> {broda sei mu da lerfu}, and {broda sei xlali} should be taken to mean "I 
> think {broda} was a bad word choice".
>
> On Saturday, September 1, 2012 8:26:28 AM UTC-4, la gleki wrote:
>
>
>
> On Saturday, September 1, 2012 4:03:52 PM UTC+4, tijlan wrote:
>
> On 30 August 2012 17:32, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> > Can't we clearly define UI in terms of {sei broda} after all? 
> > So you are saying that {.a'o}={sei kanpe je djica}, right? 
>
> {a'o} and {kanpe je djica} seem to generally mean the same kind of 
> emotion, yes. 
>
> Some notes: 
> {ui} is a direct expression of happiness, whereas {(zo'e) gleki} is a 
> descriptive statement that someone feels / felt / will feel happiness 
> -- same emotion, different functions. Also, with {ui}, the experiencer 
> is the speaker by default; with {sei gleki}, it can be non-speakers. 
> {sei gleki} can be used to translate adverbial stuff, such as 
> "happily", whose explicit or implicit subject (x1) can be other than 
> the speaker. So, the {sei broda} form cannot always substitute for or 
> define UI. 
>
>  
> Well, I guess {.ei=sei bilga} not {.ei=sei mi bilga} ?
> I want all UI-cmavo translated to {sei ko'a broda} form.
>
>
>
>
> > Can you also derive {.ai} from {.au}? 
>
> Does {ai} always imply {au}? Probably not. One can intend but not want 
> to pay a tax. 
> Does {au} always imply {ai}? Probably not. One can want but not intend 
> to go to Mars. 
>
>
> mu'o 
>
> -- 
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>
>  

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<br><br>On Saturday, September 1, 2012 6:44:34 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:<bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border=
-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div style=3D"color:#000;bac=
kground-color:#fff;font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-si=
ze:12pt">I suppose the idea here is {sei} as a sort of stage direction, the=
 usual "Alice said" supplemented now by comments about Alice's presumed sta=
te of mind.&nbsp; Using this for {a'o} and the like seems misguided, becaus=
e 1) they are not metalinguistic, but part of the speech stream -- not some=
one els'e remark, but the speakers expression; 2) they are not truthvalued,=
 as the {sei} comments are.<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div=
>Isn't {sei} the same as loglandic {{soi crano}} etc.?</div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div style=3D"color:#000;background-colo=
r:#fff;font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt"><di=
v><span><br></span></div><div><br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family:times n=
ew roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt"> <div style=3D"font-family:ti=
mes new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <font=
 face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <hr size=3D"1">  <b><span style=3D"font-weight:=
bold">From:</span></b> triliyn &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank=
" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"ksGo8qik7ocJ">trillio...@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br> <=
b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b>
 <a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"ksGo8qi=
k7ocJ">loj...@googlegroups.com</a> <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold"=
>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, September 1, 2012 8:37 AM<br> <b><span style=3D=
"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [lojban] Re: Is there any real d=
iffrence between hope (.a'o) and desire (.au)?<br> </font> </div> <br>
<div>I've always thought of {sei} as introducing a comment about the text w=
ithout regard for the meaning of the text. For example, you could say {brod=
a sei mu da lerfu}, and {broda sei xlali} should be taken to mean "I think =
{broda} was a bad word choice".<br><br>On Saturday, September 1, 2012 8:26:=
28 AM UTC-4, la gleki wrote:<blockquote style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br><br>On Saturday, Septembe=
r 1, 2012 4:03:52 PM UTC+4, tijlan wrote:<blockquote style=3D"margin:0;marg=
in-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On 30 August 201=
2 17:32, la gleki &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow">gleki.is...@gmail.com</a>&gt; wro=
te:
<br>&gt; Can't we clearly define UI in terms of {sei broda} after all?
<br>&gt; So you are saying that {.a'o}=3D{sei kanpe je djica}, right?
<br>
<br>{a'o} and {kanpe je djica} seem to generally mean the same kind of emot=
ion, yes.
<br>
<br>Some notes:
<br>{ui} is a direct expression of happiness, whereas {(zo'e) gleki} is a
<br>descriptive statement that someone feels / felt / will feel happiness
<br>-- same emotion, different functions. Also, with {ui}, the experiencer
<br>is the speaker by default; with {sei gleki}, it can be non-speakers.
<br>{sei gleki} can be used to translate adverbial stuff, such as
<br>"happily", whose explicit or implicit subject (x1) can be other than
<br>the speaker. So, the {sei broda} form cannot always substitute for or
<br>define UI.
<br></blockquote><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Well, I guess {.ei=3Dsei bilga} not =
{.ei=3Dsei mi bilga} ?</div><div>I want all UI-cmavo translated to {sei ko'=
a broda} form.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote style=3D"marg=
in:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
<br>&gt; Can you also derive {.ai} from {.au}?
<br>
<br>Does {ai} always imply {au}? Probably not. One can intend but not want
<br>to pay a tax.
<br>Does {au} always imply {ai}? Probably not. One can want but not intend
<br>to go to Mars.
<br>
<br>
<br>mu'o
<br></blockquote></blockquote>



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</div><br><br> </div> </div>  </div></div></blockquote>

<p></p>

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