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From: Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] First doubts
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2012 14:54:19 -0400
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On Saturday, September 01, 2012 01:56:07 Greezael Think wrote:
> I started learning lojban about a month ago, although I knew it existed
> from before. For the moment, I'm very happy with it, but I've found some
> doubts I would like to ask:
> 
> - lujvo and rafsi. I just don't understand where is the need for these
> composed words. If I understood correctly, they're just tanru in an
> abbreviated form. They are supposed to specify the meaning of the tanru, by
> creating an additional definiton. But they can use any combination of
> possible rafsi, so you could only add one additional definition? I don't
> understand in which way they could be useful, they only save you a pair of
> letters, and for the problem of the meanings it would be far easier adding
> a number before the tanru, for example, and having a theoretically
> unlimited list of specific meanings (if they are needed).  And they are
> really difficult to learn: even if they have defined rules, they have too
> much rules to think about them while speaking (in my humble opinion).

Are you thinking that we should be able to define "citmau", "ci'ormau", and 
"ci'ozma" as having different meanings? (I first wrote "ci'onmau", influenced by 
"cionmau", which means "panda".)

As to rules, consider this rule: If a verb of the second or third conjugation 
has a stem ending in "z" or "c" (depending on the following vowel) preceded by 
a vowel, the "z" or "c" changes to "zc" in the first person singular present 
indicative, and thus the present subjunctive, unless the vowel before "z" 
becomes a diphthong when stressed. I have no idea where this rule came from; 
it's not in Portuguese or French. Do you think about this rule, or about verbs 
that don't follow it, when speaking?

> - Some cmavo don't seem too logical. When I learned ja je ji jo ju I
> thought that it was a great idea following the a/e/i/o/u pattern, it made
> everything much easier. But then I found se/te/ve/xe. I don't really
> understand why those words where chosen, instead of using the vowel pattern
> (leaving one vowel out, obviously). If it were used, it would be easier
> thinking which one is the pair of sumtis changed.

Actually it's a/e/ji/o/u, because "i' is used to separate sentences, so 
ja/je/je'i/jo/ju.

> -Pronunciation. First, I'm a native Spanish speaker, so it's possible that
> I find it difficult just because its differences with Spanish. But I'm
> pretty sure differentiating "j" and "c" is difficult for everyone. I've
> tried hard, and between vowels I can use them, but for example I can't say
> "lojban" and make it sound different from an hypothetical "locban". At the
> beginning I also had problems with "y", but even if it can be difficult to
> pronounce, at least is easy to see how it's a different sound from the
> others.

"locban" is forbidden by phonotactics. Try "carce jarco" or "jmaji cmaci". 
What dialect of Spanish do you speak? My mother came from El Salvador.

> So, that's pretty much it. Thank you everybody for working hard on this
> great language. And sorry for my english, I hope it at leas understandable

No problem!

Pierre
-- 
Don't buy a French car in Holland. It may be a citroen.

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