Received: from mail-vc0-f189.google.com ([209.85.220.189]:58301)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncCKOXn8wTEJiYk4IFGgT9-ihN@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1T8YXf-0004ZX-QO; Mon, 03 Sep 2012 08:26:35 -0700
Received: by vcbfl13 with SMTP id fl13sf5264900vcb.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Mon, 03 Sep 2012 08:26:17 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806;
        h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references
         :subject:mime-version:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=BoE04e0wea0XxsCl3iVsQbPXX5RBgH6nW3FBJThEpsg=;
        b=EYgHY9o5YnY27dJZmHRk6PJXYnFaOTgDevik5OSu5kMRjrGM5qrHD7w/I0Vc5hFVqh
         SHMxAbdjHENX13gYVFb2CW6EOa8vejz6dR7b0dCqr27RZErvCVs9dfzdxjvSU+naK6LT
         LhpPGh43z/lHA8CSsaK5qG2tZVu5S9SkUAWCIOEuquvEX8IOMRIAzqwVR0WR4xmzHTHq
         xdHxBFcLNtkDKea/sh63Gqf4ozbta5Clt2ME3slZ5lBHuY+RHlXKCcuAEqYp4kni36nn
         pluh3qtUf0XXbq/3r5UeLOvtEvv9UPyv+CaFppCOrUfXxFvpef9foi/7Sj+UkXtrNOT2
         cSAA==
Received: by 10.52.37.74 with SMTP id w10mr2071752vdj.8.1346685976897;
        Mon, 03 Sep 2012 08:26:16 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.220.155.6 with SMTP id q6ls4303440vcw.3.gmail; Mon, 03 Sep
 2012 08:26:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.52.67.12 with SMTP id j12mr2075624vdt.7.1346685976194;
        Mon, 03 Sep 2012 08:26:16 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 08:26:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>, 
	Robin Powell <robinleepowell@gmail.com>
Message-Id: <508be9ec-696e-453f-8452-b1e7f149a52e@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <c230ab3e-6520-423b-adb0-04089cb709c0@googlegroups.com>
References: <20111107073107.GI21492@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
 <CAO7tK2c3r3BO610ohaTG1J1+QE9bk6hQ=TtzM3hOiqyuMXv9Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111108075231.GK21492@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
 <CAO7tK2cvYx+5bnu37M13XF7WtjmRqHpn8K9Vf3Nn+V1qsoEEqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111110070826.GT19979@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
 <4EBC1F61.5040806@gmail.com>
 <CAO7tK2dNKkvvUmJ78p5PymeGpMOFFO9dnr84-_aoX0WjdBDroQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111118081544.GB2500@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
 <CAO7tK2cry6Ko+DgZ702XLT-_z45Y8GO=d9BEb4yHCGpt54uA-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <57e78744-ca43-461d-a0ff-5627305923fd@googlegroups.com>
 <20120714203726.GF30080@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
 <fe71119e-a758-49e3-8842-2ce7138ad3af@googlegroups.com>
 <8f7c8ee6-3529-42cd-8b37-b1647295bba4@googlegroups.com>
 <c230ab3e-6520-423b-adb0-04089cb709c0@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] baby words, sort of: catlu vs. zgana
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: ls.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of
 gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates internal as permitted sender)
 smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass
 header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:googlegroups-manage+1004133512417+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 
	boundary="----=_Part_1245_29290871.1346685975455"
X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.7
X-Spam_score_int: -6
X-Spam_bar: /

------=_Part_1245_29290871.1346685975455
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1



On Saturday, September 1, 2012 3:37:20 PM UTC+4, la gleki wrote:
>
>
>
> On Thursday, August 30, 2012 8:41:02 PM UTC+4, la gleki wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, August 10, 2012 5:48:53 PM UTC+4, la gleki wrote:
>>>
>>> The scheme is still not complete. Let's put all sensory aspects into one 
>>> table.
>>> These are the predicate that we might get (I will give them temporary 
>>> names in curly brackets).
>>>
>>> {HEAR} - x1 hears object(e.g. musician)/event (e.g. concert) x2, listens 
>>> to it and defines x2 as x3 (noisy, loud, sweet, lovely, romantic etc.)
>>> {SEE} - x1 sees object/event x2, looks at x2 and defines it as x3 
>>> (green, that it looks ugly etc.)
>>> {SMELL} - x1 smells object/event x2, observes x2 and defines it as x3 
>>> (e.g. flowery,pungent, musk)
>>> {TASTE} - x1 tastes object/event x2, observes x2 and defines it as x3 
>>> (e.g. tasty, sweet,sour)
>>> {TOUCH} - x1 touches x2, observes (tries) x2 and defines it as having 
>>> texture x3 (e.g. rought)
>>> As you can see we actually need valsi with three places. "observe" is a 
>>> variation of each predicate that can be best expressed using 
>>> additional {jundi}  or {zgana} as xorxes suggested.
>>> This scheme is consistent. The only problem is that it doesn't 
>>> correspond to the current mess of sensory gismu.
>>>
>>> The only gismu that corresponds to this scheme is {te panci}.
>>> {sumne} is a superfluous gismu.
>>> {te tirna} is something that we can also place in every sensory gismu.
>>> {vrusi} overlaps the senses of taste and smell.
>>>
>>> This is something that definitely needs revision.
>>> We have five senses and we must clearly express what we feel.
>>> *Currently Lojban lacks such power (except in the case of {te panci}).*
>>>
>>
>> Addition.
>> {te jvinu} also follows this pattern (thanks xorxes for noticing!)
>> {te skari} also follows this pattern.
>>
>> However, tirna3, viska3 and skari4 can be easily expressed using {va'o}.
>>
>
>
> In order to reach maximum compatibility with the current gimste I can also 
> suggest mergin x2 and x3 in my previous proposal getting 
>
> Alternate proposal
> {HEAR} - x1 hears object(e.g. musician/sound)/event x2 (e.g. mi tirna lo 
> nu balzgibende cu cladu)
> {SEE} - x1 sees object/event x2 (mi viska lo du'u lo tricu cu crino)
> {SMELL} - x1 smells object/event x2 (mi sumne lo nu lo xrula cu cpina)
> {TASTE} - x1 tastes object/event x2 (mi me'oi TASTE lo nu lo plise cu 
> titla)
> {TOUCH} - x1 touches x2 (mi me'oi TOUCH-FEEL lo nu lo sefta cu rufsu)
>
> I also suggest that x2 in all 5 sensory gismu can be both an object and an 
> event, thus allowing sumti-raising
> so that we can say
>
> *mi tirna lo balzgibende*
> *mi tirna lo cladu*
> *mi tirna lo nu balzgibende cu cladu *
>
>
> We have no gismu for TASTE ( {vrusi} has no place for experiencer) and 
> TOUCH-FEEL ({pencu} is now what we need. when i touch {ko'a} with a 
> screwdriver i touch-feel the screwdriver but touch {ko'a} ).
>

Correction:
{pencu} is NOT what is needed. when i touch {ko'a} with a screwdriver i 
touch-feel the screwdriver but touch {ko'a}  
 

> We would also need to allow in {sumne2} not only the object being smelled 
> but the type of smell and abstraction for the combination of the object and 
> it's smell.
>  
>
>
>
>>  
>>
>>>
>>> On Sunday, July 15, 2012 12:37:26 AM UTC+4, Robin Powell wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 01:32:54PM -0700, djandus wrote: 
>>>> > On Friday, November 18, 2011 3:48:51 PM UTC-6, xorxes wrote: 
>>>> > > 
>>>> > > On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 5:15 AM, Robin Lee Powell wrote: 
>>>> > > > This is really interesting stuff!  Can you make sure it 
>>>> > > > appears on some appropriate BPFK page? 
>>>> > > > 
>>>> > > > I completely agree with you about zgana, and I'm inclined to 
>>>> > > > agree with you about ganse; make sure they get notes in the 
>>>> > > > gismu setion please. 
>>>> > >  
>>>> > > I'm not in much of a wiki-editing mood lately, so I'll leave 
>>>> > > that to somepony else. 
>>>> > > 
>>>> > Dude, did this really never get done? 
>>>>
>>>> I linked to the thread on the gismu issues page, a few hours ago. 
>>>>
>>>> -Robin 
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> http://singinst.org/ :  Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. 
>>>> .i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i danfu lu na go'i li'u .e 
>>>> lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e lu go'i na'i li'u .e 
>>>> lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e lu lo mamta be do cu 
>>>> sofybakni li'u 
>>>>
>>>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/25zS4tsz9A0J.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.


------=_Part_1245_29290871.1346685975455
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<br><br>On Saturday, September 1, 2012 3:37:20 PM UTC+4, la gleki wrote:<bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border=
-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><br><br>On Thursday, August 30, 2=
012 8:41:02 PM UTC+4, la gleki wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex=
"><br><br>On Friday, August 10, 2012 5:48:53 PM UTC+4, la gleki wrote:<bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">The scheme is still not complete. Let's =
put all sensory aspects into one table.<div>These are the predicate that we=
 might get (I will give them temporary names in curly brackets).</div><div>=
<br></div><div><div>{HEAR} - x1 hears object(e.g. musician)/event (e.g. con=
cert) x2, listens to it and defines x2 as x3 (noisy, loud, sweet, lovely, r=
omantic etc.)</div><div>{SEE} - x1 sees object/event x2, looks at x2 and de=
fines it as x3 (green, that it looks ugly etc.)</div></div><div>{SMELL} - x=
1 smells object/event x2, observes x2 and defines it as x3 (e.g. flowery,pu=
ngent, musk)</div><div>{TASTE} - x1 tastes object/event x2, observes x2 and=
 defines it as x3 (e.g. tasty, sweet,sour)</div><div>{TOUCH} - x1 touches x=
2, observes (tries) x2 and defines it as having texture x3 (e.g. rought)<br=
></div><div>As you can see we actually need valsi with three places. "obser=
ve" is a variation of each predicate that can be best expressed using addit=
ional&nbsp;{jundi}&nbsp; or&nbsp;{zgana} as xorxes suggested.<br></div><div=
>This scheme is consistent. The only problem is that it doesn't correspond =
to the current mess of sensory gismu.</div><div><br></div><div>The only gis=
mu that corresponds to this scheme is {te panci}.</div><div>{sumne}&nbsp;is=
 a superfluous gismu.</div><div>{te tirna} is something that we can also pl=
ace in every sensory gismu.</div><div>{vrusi} overlaps the senses of taste =
and smell.</div><div><br></div><div>This is something that definitely needs=
 revision.</div><div>We have five senses and we must clearly express what w=
e feel.</div><div><b>Currently Lojban lacks such power (except in the case =
of {te panci}).</b></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Addition.</div><d=
iv>{te jvinu} also follows this pattern (thanks xorxes for noticing!)</div>=
<div>{te skari} also follows this pattern.</div><div><br></div><div>However=
, tirna3, viska3 and skari4 can be easily expressed using {va'o}.</div></bl=
ockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>In order to reach maximum compa=
tibility with the current gimste I can also suggest mergin x2 and x3 in my =
previous proposal getting&nbsp;<br><br>Alternate proposal<br><div>{HEAR} - =
x1 hears object(e.g. musician/sound)/event x2 (e.g. mi tirna lo nu balzgibe=
nde cu cladu)</div><div>{SEE} - x1 sees object/event x2 (mi viska lo du'u l=
o tricu cu crino)</div><div>{SMELL} - x1 smells object/event x2 (mi sumne l=
o nu lo xrula cu cpina)</div><div>{TASTE} - x1 tastes object/event x2 (mi m=
e'oi TASTE lo nu lo plise cu titla)</div><div>{TOUCH} - x1 touches x2 (mi m=
e'oi TOUCH-FEEL lo nu lo sefta cu rufsu)<br><br>I also suggest that x2 in a=
ll 5 sensory gismu can be both an object and an event, thus allowing sumti-=
raising</div><div>so that we can say</div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div><div><i>mi tirna lo balzgibende</=
i></div></div><div><div><div><i>mi tirna lo cladu</i></div></div></div><div=
><i>mi tirna lo nu balzgibende cu cladu&nbsp;</i></div></blockquote><div><b=
r></div><div>We have no gismu for TASTE ( {vrusi} has no place for experien=
cer) and TOUCH-FEEL ({pencu} is now what we need. when i touch {ko'a} with =
a screwdriver i touch-feel the screwdriver but touch&nbsp;{ko'a}&nbsp;).</d=
iv></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Correction:<br>{pencu} is NOT what is n=
eeded. when i touch {ko'a} with a screwdriver i touch-feel the screwdriver =
but touch&nbsp;{ko'a}&nbsp;&nbsp;<br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div>We would also need&nbsp;to allow&nbsp;in=
&nbsp;{sumne2}&nbsp;not only the object being smelled but the type of smell=
 and abstraction for the combination of the object and it's smell.</div><di=
v>&nbsp;</div><div><br><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><d=
iv><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>=
<br></div><div>On Sunday, July 15, 2012 12:37:26 AM UTC+4, Robin Powell wro=
te:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 01:32:54=
PM -0700, djandus wrote:
<br>&gt; On Friday, November 18, 2011 3:48:51 PM UTC-6, xorxes wrote:
<br>&gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt; On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 5:15 AM, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; This is really interesting stuff! &nbsp;Can you make sur=
e it
<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; appears on some appropriate BPFK page?
<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; I completely agree with you about zgana, and I'm incline=
d to
<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; agree with you about ganse; make sure they get notes in =
the
<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; gismu setion please.
<br>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;<br>&gt; &gt; I'm not in much of a wiki-editing mood la=
tely, so I'll leave
<br>&gt; &gt; that to somepony else.
<br>&gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; Dude, did this really never get done?
<br>
<br>I linked to the thread on the gismu issues page, a few hours ago.
<br>
<br>-Robin
<br>
<br>--=20
<br><a href=3D"http://singinst.org/" target=3D"_blank">http://singinst.org/=
</a> : &nbsp;Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
<br>.i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i danfu lu na go'i li'u .e
<br>lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e lu go'i na'i li'u .e
<br>lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e lu lo mamta be do cu sofybakn=
i li'u
<br></blockquote></div></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.<br />
To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c=
om/d/msg/lojban/-/25zS4tsz9A0J">https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/25=
zS4tsz9A0J</a>.<br />=20
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.<br />

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.<br />



------=_Part_1245_29290871.1346685975455--