Received: from mail-qa0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]:56231) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TC86W-0008Lb-D4; Thu, 13 Sep 2012 05:01:21 -0700 Received: by qadz32 with SMTP id z32sf2449632qad.16 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2012 05:01:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=UzfkNmZgDTEYVfTT+US2cvEb5K9b/1Qih+Pph5JBnrk=; b=n/smaFvgvVZYsZvyfZN0bNek44Lek3uhaztMgoDwGax32QgNTd2x6UxlDgVI8+xiYF 0mS4zF5NJphxvEuFE2VVpYMSLtF0zsa8055M228dHQyrCtZcrfgpT6SE1zFXde+R1OmE oyC/LhmILv040aA9Jr1RifzJNq6A38hFy4pAXcOn5LRr3Sd0JrYaPUcTBAwm8ytPJLJY RMi6aalcbhxGWGCCqeCduto8lwBPPk4wJ3aLSbhu+Lt7OingpTquBf0hzqeae/A4RtmD QeRgT++ZqXVBK81LPDb+RF734Krj0WKIh6lHcNi/dTD7N0/I8ugUyLdCFMuq1jC33mrx qM7g== Received: by 10.52.92.207 with SMTP id co15mr96068vdb.9.1347537661661; Thu, 13 Sep 2012 05:01:01 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.149.129 with SMTP id t1ls2662800vcv.0.gmail; Thu, 13 Sep 2012 05:01:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.29.131 with SMTP id k3mr133756vdh.5.1347537661125; Thu, 13 Sep 2012 05:01:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 05:01:00 -0700 (PDT) From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <41b1ccaa-23c7-4018-8a6b-2441c30ae569@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <00252ba2-6cb8-4901-9cd3-7d8c9ce755f4@q7g2000pbj.googlegroups.com> References: <989a467e-d2ab-4755-9a8c-8f7ec87c4b33@googlegroups.com> <876a27bb-9c98-4540-8664-da0b464d5c71@googlegroups.com> <416a0fc0-eaaa-4648-9085-918c7ec6c849@googlegroups.com> <071bb4c6-35dc-4555-a6d0-7e011da19faa@kg10g2000pbc.googlegroups.com> <8447e673-8c13-4ce1-a699-b3c40985bcc6@googlegroups.com> <00252ba2-6cb8-4901-9cd3-7d8c9ce755f4@q7g2000pbj.googlegroups.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: Any volunteers for "Phrasebook. A multilingual dictionary"? (No Lojban skills required) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: ls.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates internal as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_178_16376798.1347537660586" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_178_16376798.1347537660586 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thursday, September 13, 2012 9:03:03 AM UTC+4, guskant wrote: > > You did not answer my question: "Do you aim at giving a phrasebook > only for English speakers?" > No. > > If yes, I intend neither to prevent English speakers talking malglico > in Lojbanistan, nor to take part in the phrasebook for English- > speaking travellers; I will leave it as it is. If no, I don't agree > with the method with English column detached to the left end because > of the reasons I have already written. > > mu'o > > > On Sep 13, 1:01 pm, la gleki wrote: > > On Thursday, September 13, 2012 1:30:37 AM UTC+4, guskant wrote: > > > > > Do you aim at giving a phrasebook only for English speakers? If so, I > > > have no interest in it; if not, I would like to make some comments. > > > > > Because the column on the left end is not Lojban but English, > > > translators translate the phrases naturally from English. This method > > > simply establishes malglico. > > > > > For example the greetings: I opine only the phrases {coi}, {co'o} and > > > {pei} are enough for the list. > > > > > Distinction of the time of a day, as well as meaning of each word used > > > in the greetings, depends on the language. For example in Japanese, > > > they use neither {xamgu} nor {cerni} but {clira} for the greeting of > > > the morning or the beginning of working time (even in the nighttime); > > > neither {xamgu} nor {lerci} nor {donri} but {lo cabdei zo'u} for the > > > greeting of the daytime; there is no specific greeting of the > > > afternoon. If you suppose non-English speakers to be readers of the > > > phrasebook, these malglico may be great defects. > > > > > If you put the column of Lojban on the left end and reduce the > > > greeting phrases to {coi}, {co'o} and {pei}, translators may produce > > > plural translations for one Lojban phrase, and it's enough for a > > > phrasebook of common use. Lojban speakers may add {xamgu}, {cerni}, > > > {clira}, {lerci}, {donri} etc. as they like, but these words are > > > useless for a phrasebook of common use. > > > > > Other categories are also dotted with malglico. For example, {do nanca > > > ma --- mi li repa nanca}. > > > I opine they are talking about the lifetime, not the actual age. > > > > > {nanca} is a gismu with x2 as quantity. When we talk about a > > > continuum, the universe of discourse includes habitually the whole > > > body of the continuum. Moreover, "Numbers need never be specified, but > > > if they are specified they must be correct" (CLL 6.6). With these > > > preconditions, using the phrase {mi li repa nanca} for the actual age > > > is incorrect. > > > > > For clearness, suppose you measure the length of a canal about 500 > > > metres long with your average step length. You begin with one end of > > > the canal, and walk along the bank toward the other end counting the > > > number of steps. When you come near to the middle of the canal, I ask > > > you {lo naxle cu mitre ma}. If you answer {lo naxle li remuno mitre}, > > > it is simply incorrect, because the universe of discourse includes the > > > whole canal, and the length of it should be {mitre li ji'i munono}. If > > > you want to answer the length of the part you have already measured, > > > you need to mention the endpoint(s) of the measurement {ta bi'i ti li > > > remuno mitre}, or add {za'u}: {lo naxle li za'u remuno mitre}. The > > > same discussion can be applied to {nanca}. I would say {do ca ze'e pu > > > nanca ma --- li repa / mi li repa ca ze'e pu nanca} to talk about the > > > actual age, and {do nanca ma --- li za'u repa / mi li za'u repa nanca} > > > to talk about the lifetime. > > > > Please make corrections to the phrasebook. I think English should be > > detached. > > > > The general idea is that you visit any country (even if it's > Lojbanistan), > > open two columns (in your mother tongue) and in the language of the > country > > you are visiting. The phrasebook must give you the ability to speak > > (given that you have some knowledge of the language). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mu'o > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/QfNqOs3UERoJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. ------=_Part_178_16376798.1347537660586 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Thursday, September 13, 2012 9:03:03 AM UTC+4, guskant wrote:
You did not answer my question: "Do you aim at giving a phrasebook
only for English speakers?"

No.
 

If yes, I intend neither to prevent English speakers talking malglico
in Lojbanistan, nor to take part in the phrasebook for English-
speaking travellers; I will leave it as it is. If no, I don't agree
with the method with English column detached to the left end because
of the reasons I have already written.

mu'o


On Sep 13, 1:01 pm, la gleki <gleki.is.my.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, September 13, 2012 1:30:37 AM UTC+4, guskant wrote:
>
> > Do you aim at giving a phrasebook only for English speakers? If so, I
> > have no interest in it; if not, I would like to make some comments.
>
> > Because the column on the left end is not Lojban but English,
> > translators translate the phrases naturally from English. This method
> > simply establishes malglico.
>
> > For example the greetings: I opine only the phrases {coi}, {co'o} and
> > {pei} are enough for the list.
>
> > Distinction of the time of a day, as well as meaning of each word used
> > in the greetings, depends on the language. For example in Japanese,
> > they use neither {xamgu} nor {cerni} but {clira} for the greeting of
> > the morning or the beginning of working time (even in the nighttime);
> > neither {xamgu} nor {lerci} nor {donri} but {lo cabdei zo'u} for the
> > greeting of the daytime; there is no specific greeting of the
> > afternoon. If you suppose non-English speakers to be readers of the
> > phrasebook, these malglico may be great defects.
>
> > If you put the column of Lojban on the left end and reduce the
> > greeting phrases to {coi}, {co'o} and {pei}, translators may produce
> > plural translations for one Lojban phrase, and it's enough for a
> > phrasebook of common use. Lojban speakers may add {xamgu}, {cerni},
> > {clira}, {lerci}, {donri} etc. as they like, but these words are
> > useless for a phrasebook of common use.
>
> > Other categories are also dotted with malglico. For example, {do nanca
> > ma --- mi li repa nanca}.
> > I opine they are talking about the lifetime, not the actual age.
>
> > {nanca} is a gismu with x2 as quantity. When we talk about a
> > continuum, the universe of discourse includes habitually the whole
> > body of the continuum. Moreover, "Numbers need never be specified, but
> > if they are specified they must be correct" (CLL 6.6). With these
> > preconditions, using the phrase {mi li repa nanca} for the actual age
> > is incorrect.
>
> > For clearness, suppose you measure the length of a canal about 500
> > metres long with your average step length. You begin with one end of
> > the canal, and walk along the bank toward the other end counting the
> > number of steps. When you come near to the middle of the canal, I ask
> > you {lo naxle cu mitre ma}. If you answer {lo naxle li remuno mitre},
> > it is simply incorrect, because the universe of discourse includes the
> > whole canal, and the length of it should be {mitre li ji'i munono}. If
> > you want to answer the length of the part you have already measured,
> > you need to mention the endpoint(s) of the measurement {ta bi'i ti li
> > remuno mitre}, or add {za'u}: {lo naxle li za'u remuno mitre}. The
> > same discussion can be applied to {nanca}. I would say {do ca ze'e pu
> > nanca ma --- li repa / mi li repa ca ze'e pu nanca} to talk about the
> > actual age, and {do nanca ma --- li za'u repa / mi li za'u repa nanca}
> > to talk about the lifetime.
>
> Please make corrections to the phrasebook. I think English should be
> detached.
>
> The general idea is that you visit any country (even if it's Lojbanistan),
> open two columns (in your mother tongue) and in the language of the country
> you are visiting. The phrasebook must give you the ability to speak
> (given that you have some knowledge of the language).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > mu'o

--
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