Received: from mail-qc0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]:55735) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TCAEP-00026y-AL; Thu, 13 Sep 2012 07:17:33 -0700 Received: by qcac11 with SMTP id c11sf2541139qca.16 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2012 07:17:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references :subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=J2VDSMiFlzLKctOyiDj1kxdEEYv8GZscWO3wDpu9CP4=; b=MmIociZ1857bmRf4pfhzCGpscgDYKdNqBhkeI+wfNdpdQ0BFnqk9ge+vyPfpNh6AZm R0BGlrY+VbwGcPUNR1ZArkO2RsRyzuBE5KD5WW/kheSdKRkstg6nbDiww8dc8AG+zeNe KfVuJjN3gN9WPeFPgMj0gXi/qRds3LGX+6BBA88sohX5EHz4xdsKlyyPTBLae7RhJRpn UlcCZmdG2GbDZf5DM2zKo/r9MTcDUIsVeS4fFxgoDHdDJyhJSoMBaDaDXsb570RwIrxd gRaaoxYQsU0VxnNZOkTLUFj7zwQYWM14ja8jJ+Iz6SV24GcY5zTLTuDeyrUmgP9DtxSB 7arQ== Received: by 10.182.44.1 with SMTP id a1mr79839obm.10.1347545837414; Thu, 13 Sep 2012 07:17:17 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.26.73 with SMTP id j9ls3765257obg.5.gmail; Thu, 13 Sep 2012 07:17:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.182.86.130 with SMTP id p2mr83489obz.7.1347545836764; Thu, 13 Sep 2012 07:17:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 07:17:16 -0700 (PDT) From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= , Robin Powell Message-Id: <11d882eb-8fd3-4e20-afc9-80dda2fc128a@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20111107073107.GI21492@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <20111108075231.GK21492@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <20111110070826.GT19979@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <4EBC1F61.5040806@gmail.com> <20111118081544.GB2500@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <57e78744-ca43-461d-a0ff-5627305923fd@googlegroups.com> <20120714203726.GF30080@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <8f7c8ee6-3529-42cd-8b37-b1647295bba4@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] baby words, sort of: catlu vs. zgana MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: ls.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates internal as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_93_23245997.1347545836059" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_93_23245997.1347545836059 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Saturday, September 1, 2012 3:37:20 PM UTC+4, la gleki wrote: > > > > On Thursday, August 30, 2012 8:41:02 PM UTC+4, la gleki wrote: >> >> >> >> On Friday, August 10, 2012 5:48:53 PM UTC+4, la gleki wrote: >>> >>> The scheme is still not complete. Let's put all sensory aspects into one >>> table. >>> These are the predicate that we might get (I will give them temporary >>> names in curly brackets). >>> >>> {HEAR} - x1 hears object(e.g. musician)/event (e.g. concert) x2, listens >>> to it and defines x2 as x3 (noisy, loud, sweet, lovely, romantic etc.) >>> {SEE} - x1 sees object/event x2, looks at x2 and defines it as x3 >>> (green, that it looks ugly etc.) >>> {SMELL} - x1 smells object/event x2, observes x2 and defines it as x3 >>> (e.g. flowery,pungent, musk) >>> {TASTE} - x1 tastes object/event x2, observes x2 and defines it as x3 >>> (e.g. tasty, sweet,sour) >>> {TOUCH} - x1 touches x2, observes (tries) x2 and defines it as having >>> texture x3 (e.g. rought) >>> As you can see we actually need valsi with three places. "observe" is a >>> variation of each predicate that can be best expressed using >>> additional {jundi} or {zgana} as xorxes suggested. >>> This scheme is consistent. The only problem is that it doesn't >>> correspond to the current mess of sensory gismu. >>> >>> The only gismu that corresponds to this scheme is {te panci}. >>> {sumne} is a superfluous gismu. >>> {te tirna} is something that we can also place in every sensory gismu. >>> {vrusi} overlaps the senses of taste and smell. >>> >>> This is something that definitely needs revision. >>> We have five senses and we must clearly express what we feel. >>> *Currently Lojban lacks such power (except in the case of {te panci}).* >>> >> >> Addition. >> {te jvinu} also follows this pattern (thanks xorxes for noticing!) >> {te skari} also follows this pattern. >> >> However, tirna3, viska3 and skari4 can be easily expressed using {va'o}. >> > > > In order to reach maximum compatibility with the current gimste I can also > suggest mergin x2 and x3 in my previous proposal getting > > Alternate proposal > {HEAR} - x1 hears object(e.g. musician/sound)/event x2 (e.g. mi tirna lo > nu balzgibende cu cladu) > {SEE} - x1 sees object/event x2 (mi viska lo du'u lo tricu cu crino) > {SMELL} - x1 smells object/event x2 (mi sumne lo nu lo xrula cu cpina) > {TASTE} - x1 tastes object/event x2 (mi me'oi TASTE lo nu lo plise cu > titla) > {TOUCH} - x1 touches x2 (mi me'oi TOUCH-FEEL lo nu lo sefta cu rufsu) > > I also suggest that x2 in all 5 sensory gismu can be both an object and an > event, thus allowing sumti-raising > so that we can say > > *mi tirna lo balzgibende* > *mi tirna lo cladu* > *mi tirna lo nu balzgibende cu cladu * > > I have to make corrections. broda2 for sensory gismu is either the abstraction itself or the argument raised to sumti level. So the correct way to epxress the previous example would be mi tirna [tu'a] lo balzgibende mi tirna lo nu cladu mi tirna lo nu balzgibende cu cladu When we say "I see you" we actually mean "I see you standing/present in front of me/{co'e}/whatever". So {mi viska do} is just a handy emulation of natlangs when it should really be expressed as {mi viska tu'a do}. But as some lojbanists already do this illegal trick then let's make it official. Therefore {mi ganse lo du'u crino} - I sense something as being green (i.e. I see it). {mi ganse lo du'u lo cladu ku crino} - I sense some loud object as green (i.e. I see it) {mi ganse [tu'a] lo cladu} - I sense some loud object [nothing is said how I sense it, it's might be a synonym of the previous example]. So there is no conflict between the object and the type of sensing it. In first case you use {tu'a} or just drop it. In the second case you use {lo su'u/nu/du'u/...} > We have no gismu for TASTE ( {vrusi} has no place for experiencer) and > TOUCH-FEEL ({pencu} is now what we need. when i touch {ko'a} with a > screwdriver i touch-feel the screwdriver but touch {ko'a} ). > We would also need to allow in {sumne2} not only the object being smelled > but the type of smell and abstraction for the combination of the object and > it's smell. > > > > >> >> >>> >>> On Sunday, July 15, 2012 12:37:26 AM UTC+4, Robin Powell wrote: >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 01:32:54PM -0700, djandus wrote: >>>> > On Friday, November 18, 2011 3:48:51 PM UTC-6, xorxes wrote: >>>> > > >>>> > > On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 5:15 AM, Robin Lee Powell wrote: >>>> > > > This is really interesting stuff! Can you make sure it >>>> > > > appears on some appropriate BPFK page? >>>> > > > >>>> > > > I completely agree with you about zgana, and I'm inclined to >>>> > > > agree with you about ganse; make sure they get notes in the >>>> > > > gismu setion please. >>>> > > >>>> > > I'm not in much of a wiki-editing mood lately, so I'll leave >>>> > > that to somepony else. >>>> > > >>>> > Dude, did this really never get done? >>>> >>>> I linked to the thread on the gismu issues page, a few hours ago. >>>> >>>> -Robin >>>> >>>> -- >>>> http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. >>>> .i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i danfu lu na go'i li'u .e >>>> lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e lu go'i na'i li'u .e >>>> lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e lu lo mamta be do cu >>>> sofybakni li'u >>>> >>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/CM2jEXP7CeUJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. ------=_Part_93_23245997.1347545836059 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Saturday, September 1, 2012 3:37:20 PM UTC+4, la gleki wrote:

On Thursday, August 30, 2= 012 8:41:02 PM UTC+4, la gleki wrote:

The scheme is still not complete. Let's = put all sensory aspects into one table.
These are the predicate that we= might get (I will give them temporary names in curly brackets).
=
{HEAR} - x1 hears object(e.g. musician)/event (e.g. con= cert) x2, listens to it and defines x2 as x3 (noisy, loud, sweet, lovely, r= omantic etc.)
{SEE} - x1 sees object/event x2, looks at x2 and de= fines it as x3 (green, that it looks ugly etc.)
{SMELL} - x= 1 smells object/event x2, observes x2 and defines it as x3 (e.g. flowery,pu= ngent, musk)
{TASTE} - x1 tastes object/event x2, observes x2 and= defines it as x3 (e.g. tasty, sweet,sour)
{TOUCH} - x1 touches x= 2, observes (tries) x2 and defines it as having texture x3 (e.g. rought)
As you can see we actually need valsi with three places. "obser= ve" is a variation of each predicate that can be best expressed using addit= ional {jundi} or {zgana} as xorxes suggested.
This scheme is consistent. The only problem is that it doesn't correspond = to the current mess of sensory gismu.

The only gis= mu that corresponds to this scheme is {te panci}.
{sumne} is= a superfluous gismu.
{te tirna} is something that we can also pl= ace in every sensory gismu.
{vrusi} overlaps the senses of taste = and smell.

This is something that definitely needs= revision.
We have five senses and we must clearly express what w= e feel.
Currently Lojban lacks such power (except in the case = of {te panci}).

Addition.

{te jvinu} also follows this pattern (thanks xorxes for noticing!)=

{te skari} also follows this pattern.

However= , tirna3, viska3 and skari4 can be easily expressed using {va'o}.

In order to reach maximum compa= tibility with the current gimste I can also suggest mergin x2 and x3 in my = previous proposal getting

Alternate proposal

{HEAR} - = x1 hears object(e.g. musician/sound)/event x2 (e.g. mi tirna lo nu balzgibe= nde cu cladu)

{SEE} - x1 sees object/event x2 (mi viska lo du'u l= o tricu cu crino)

{SMELL} - x1 smells object/event x2 (mi sumne l= o nu lo xrula cu cpina)

{TASTE} - x1 tastes object/event x2 (mi m= e'oi TASTE lo nu lo plise cu titla)

{TOUCH} - x1 touches x2 (mi m= e'oi TOUCH-FEEL lo nu lo sefta cu rufsu)

I also suggest that x2 in a= ll 5 sensory gismu can be both an object and an event, thus allowing sumti-= raising

so that we can say

mi tirna lo balzgibende
mi tirna lo cladu
mi tirna lo nu balzgibende cu cladu

I have to make corrections. broda2 for sensory gi= smu is either the abstraction itself or the argument raised to sumti level.= So the correct way to epxress the previous example would be

mi tirna [tu'a] lo balzgibende
mi tirna lo = nu cladu
mi tirna lo nu balzgibende cu cladu

When we say "I see you" we actually mean "I see you standi= ng/present in front of me/{co'e}/whatever". So {mi viska do} is just a hand= y emulation of natlangs when it should really be expressed as {mi viska tu'= a do}. But as some lojbanists already do this illegal trick then let's make= it official.

Therefore
{mi ganse = lo du'u crino} - I sense something as being green (i.e. I see it).
{mi ganse lo du'u lo cladu ku crino} - I sense some loud objec= t as green (i.e. I see it)
{mi ganse [tu'a] lo cladu} &n= bsp; - I sense some loud object [nothing is said how I sense it, it's might= be a synonym of the previous example].

So the= re is no conflict between the object and the type of sensing it. In fi= rst case you use {tu'a} or just drop it. In the second case you use {lo su'= u/nu/du'u/...}

We have no gismu for TASTE ( {vrusi= } has no place for experiencer) and TOUCH-FEEL ({pencu} is now what we need= . when i touch {ko'a} with a screwdriver i touch-feel the screwdriver but t= ouch {ko'a} ).
We would also need to allow in= {sumne2} not only the object being smelled but the type of smell= and abstraction for the combination of the object and it's smell.

=
On Sunday, July 15, 2012 12:37:26 AM UTC+4, Robin Powell wro= te:
On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 01:32:54= PM -0700, djandus wrote:
> On Friday, November 18, 2011 3:48:51 PM UTC-6, xorxes wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 5:15 AM, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> > > This is really interesting stuff! Can you make sur= e it
> > > appears on some appropriate BPFK page?
> > >
> > > I completely agree with you about zgana, and I'm incline= d to
> > > agree with you about ganse; make sure they get notes in = the
> > > gismu setion please.
> >
> > I'm not in much of a wiki-editing mood la= tely, so I'll leave
> > that to somepony else.
> >
> Dude, did this really never get done?

I linked to the thread on the gismu issues page, a few hours ago.

-Robin

--=20
http://singinst.org/= : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
.i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i danfu lu na go'i li'u .e
lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e lu go'i na'i li'u .e
lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e lu lo mamta be do cu sofybakn= i li'u

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/CM= 2jEXP7CeUJ.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
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