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From: la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
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Subject: [lojban] Re: Any volunteers for "Phrasebook. A multilingual
 dictionary"? (No Lojban skills required)
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On Friday, September 14, 2012 5:41:29 PM UTC+4, guskant wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sep 14, 4:07 pm, la gleki <gleki.is.my.n...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> > On Friday, September 14, 2012 6:53:38 AM UTC+4, guskant wrote: 
> > 
> > > On Sep 13, 9:01 pm, la gleki <gleki.is.my.n...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> > > > On Thursday, September 13, 2012 9:03:03 AM UTC+4, guskant wrote: 
> > 
> > > > > You did not answer my question: "Do you aim at giving a phrasebook 
> > > > > only for English speakers?" 
> > 
> > > > No. 
> > 
> > > Then why do you say English should be detached without logically 
> > > defending your idea? 
> > 
> > > As I mentioned in the first example of malglico, distinction of the 
> > > time of a day, which affects the selection of phrases, depends on the 
> > > language. If the core language of translations is culturally non- 
> > > neutral, the selection of phrases is non-neutral, which translators 
> > > should obey, producing unusual translations unlikely used in one's 
> > > travel to Lojbanistan, lacking phrases frequent in one's own culture. 
> > 
> > > If you keep the English column detached to the left end, English is 
> > > still treated as the core language of translations. This method forces 
> > > the culture of English speakers on translators and non-English 
> > > readers. 
> > 
> > > My second example of malglico shows that English, as well as other 
> > > natural languages, easily produces scientifically strange 
> > > interpretation of a lojbanic sentence. If you treat Lojban as the core 
> > > language of translations and think lojbanic, and there would not be 
> > > such a problem. For this purpose, putting the Lojban column detached 
> > > to the left end is a good idea, isn't it? 
> > 
> > > mu'o 
> > 
> > no column is frozen now. 
> > 
> > If we make lojban the standard this will divert other contributors of 
> the 
> > phrasebook. It'll turn into a lojbanic project. 
> > 
>
> OK, thank you for your consideration! 
>

Lojbanists won't succeed. Global work needed.
btw today I found even more low quality, actually unusable, wrong 
translations in tatoeba. Years can pass by until some moderator corrects 
them. What is the profit of using tatoeba then?

>
> > However, the basic idea is 
> > 1. Situational dialogs. 
> > 2. Universal situations 
> > 
> > If the second item cannot be implemented I suggest creating 
> > country-specific dialogs. 
> > So you open the phrasebook, open "Greetings" section, open "Japan" 
> > subsection and see how to correctly greet people in Japanese. 
>
> I added some phrases specific to Japanese. Check up the phrasebook if 
> the style is reasonable. 
>

Exactly in this place that you added the phrasebook has started looking 
very nice. Such problems were not predicted by me, but I can see that they 
can and are being solved. We just need to search for and add more 
sentences. Sentences of dialogs with low importance can be moved to the end 
of the list (last rows).

As for developing the phrasebook. Imagine that you bought a ticket (1) to 
lojbanistan. You arrive at the airport (2)/bus station (3). Now you need a 
taxi (3).
After paying the driver you get to the hotel (4). Then you visit a 
soccer/basketball/whatever match (5) as the Olympic Games are currently 
held in lojbanistan. Then you visit a museum (6) and suddenly realise that 
you are hungry. So using OpenStreet map application or asking passersby 
(8) you go to a restaurant (7).

Try describing all those situations in your native language and then in 
lojban. Imagine that your city will be one of the capitals of lojbanistan.
Find more situations. And finally add that to the phrasebook.


In addition, I corrected some Lojban greetings that seem to me 
> unacceptable. 
>
> mu'o 
>

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------=_Part_164_15235027.1347638912980
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<br><br>On Friday, September 14, 2012 5:41:29 PM UTC+4, guskant wrote:<bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-l=
eft: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
<br>On Sep 14, 4:07&nbsp;pm, la gleki &lt;<a>gleki.is.my.n...@gmail.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:
<br>&gt; On Friday, September 14, 2012 6:53:38 AM UTC+4, guskant wrote:
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; &gt; On Sep 13, 9:01 pm, la gleki &lt;<a>gleki.is.my.n...@gmail.co=
m</a>&gt; wrote:
<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; On Thursday, September 13, 2012 9:03:03 AM UTC+4, guskan=
t wrote:
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; You did not answer my question: "Do you aim at givi=
ng a phrasebook
<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; only for English speakers?"
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; No.
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; &gt; Then why do you say English should be detached without logica=
lly
<br>&gt; &gt; defending your idea?
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; &gt; As I mentioned in the first example of malglico, distinction =
of the
<br>&gt; &gt; time of a day, which affects the selection of phrases, depend=
s on the
<br>&gt; &gt; language. If the core language of translations is culturally =
non-
<br>&gt; &gt; neutral, the selection of phrases is non-neutral, which trans=
lators
<br>&gt; &gt; should obey, producing unusual translations unlikely used in =
one's
<br>&gt; &gt; travel to Lojbanistan, lacking phrases frequent in one's own =
culture.
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; &gt; If you keep the English column detached to the left end, Engl=
ish is
<br>&gt; &gt; still treated as the core language of translations. This meth=
od forces
<br>&gt; &gt; the culture of English speakers on translators and non-Englis=
h
<br>&gt; &gt; readers.
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; &gt; My second example of malglico shows that English, as well as =
other
<br>&gt; &gt; natural languages, easily produces scientifically strange
<br>&gt; &gt; interpretation of a lojbanic sentence. If you treat Lojban as=
 the core
<br>&gt; &gt; language of translations and think lojbanic, and there would =
not be
<br>&gt; &gt; such a problem. For this purpose, putting the Lojban column d=
etached
<br>&gt; &gt; to the left end is a good idea, isn't it?
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; &gt; mu'o
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; no column is frozen now.
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; If we make lojban the standard this will divert other contributors=
 of the
<br>&gt; phrasebook. It'll turn into a lojbanic project.
<br>&gt;
<br>
<br>OK, thank you for your consideration!
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Lojbanists won't succeed. Global work =
needed.</div><div>btw today I found even more low quality, actually unusabl=
e, wrong translations in tatoeba. Years can pass by until some moderator co=
rrects them. What is the profit of using tatoeba then?</div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>&gt; However, the basic idea is
<br>&gt; 1. Situational dialogs.
<br>&gt; 2. Universal situations
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; If the second item cannot be implemented I suggest creating
<br>&gt; country-specific dialogs.
<br>&gt; So you open the phrasebook, open "Greetings" section, open "Japan"
<br>&gt; subsection and see how to correctly greet people in Japanese.
<br>
<br>I added some phrases specific to Japanese. Check up the phrasebook if
<br>the style is reasonable.
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Exactly in this place that you added t=
he phrasebook has started looking very nice. Such problems were not predict=
ed by me, but I can see that they can and are being solved. We just need to=
 search for and add more sentences. Sentences of dialogs with low importanc=
e can be moved to the end of the list (last rows).</div><div><br></div><div=
>As for developing the phrasebook. Imagine that you bought a ticket (1) to =
lojbanistan. You arrive at the airport (2)/bus station (3). Now you need a =
taxi (3).</div><div>After paying the driver you get to the hotel (4). Then =
you visit a soccer/basketball/whatever match (5) as the Olympic Games are c=
urrently held in lojbanistan. Then you visit a museum (6) and suddenly real=
ise that you are hungry. So&nbsp;using OpenStreet map application or asking=
 passersby (8)&nbsp;you go to a restaurant (7).</div><div><br></div><div>Tr=
y describing all those situations in your native language and then in lojba=
n. Imagine that your city will be one of the capitals of lojbanistan.</div>=
<div>Find more situations. And finally add that to the phrasebook.</div><di=
v><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">In =
addition, I corrected some Lojban greetings that seem to me
<br>unacceptable.
<br>
<br>mu'o
<br></blockquote>

<p></p>

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