Received: from mail-gh0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]:42476) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TCcse-0000NT-5e; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 13:53:04 -0700 Received: by ghbf15 with SMTP id f15sf1407768ghb.16 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 13:52:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=eIMOhEr+nlPlXo0DWdyMeyoQj4MkgMR69619Zh7jVUs=; b=iBo1k98UjpxKlB02EIz1lC4jUN9hWp2Zmx1BFCDNMriEfZjB17zCUGSjpYjCS9434x fURD/yDaXHti9ealyFPThvmi+SWUNzae8lgvfTld9VWHhF+l2epfCCrwr1RsqLV3vUEU B2Nn/QVxAnS4LKheg/6voy0SGW0DUX8Kvj7PvFzyQyHzxYw7ICi4TVUGGvXf1EP+GwPU FDSEnPplpTZiYKwWzdNuPBV1H2nwfVeS7GGJbd8ySisu12aqturDBlXasX00M2/Q/zzL h4tyKuJVAZhVS8QY9l3cGS5RVnyk5++lFMVDc2cak8jo+H3nsWK+X7+5LqhyHJtNt88f qMsQ== Received: by 10.52.21.44 with SMTP id s12mr115440vde.5.1347655965351; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 13:52:45 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.155.6 with SMTP id q6ls3832380vcw.3.gmail; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 13:52:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.67.38 with SMTP id k6mr106225vdt.2.1347655964935; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 13:52:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.67.38 with SMTP id k6mr106223vdt.2.1347655964915; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 13:52:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f169.google.com (mail-vc0-f169.google.com [209.85.220.169]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z16si49527vdf.0.2012.09.14.13.52.44 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 14 Sep 2012 13:52:44 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.169 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.169; Received: by vcbfl17 with SMTP id fl17so2449820vcb.28 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 13:52:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.59.7.68 with SMTP id da4mr3581826ved.4.1347655964724; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 13:52:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.58.4.193 with HTTP; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 13:52:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <50538A6F.2020404@gmx.de> References: <20120814151252.GU27726@samsa> <421689dc-2c42-42f1-9cca-0d2ac1a04677@googlegroups.com> <20120816115739.GA29668@samsa> <50538A6F.2020404@gmx.de> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 16:52:44 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: lo selsanga pe la'o dy. Bodo Wartke .dy zi'e po'u la'o dy. Liebeslied .dy From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.169 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bdc876e0e8ed104c9af9b7e X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / --047d7bdc876e0e8ed104c9af9b7e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, of course, I haven't seen the debate yet (still being more than 3 weeks behind on email) and therefore don't know if you've already addressed the following question, but EVEN IF I accept arguendo your statement that "ua" is a CV (although I don't), then you must ALSO assert that "iu" is a CV. So how do you distinguish between "iu isai..." and "i ui sai..." if all the person put down (as here) was "iuisai..."? (And let's not forget that plenty of combinations like "iau" are valid in names and fu'ivla and are different than "i au and ia u" The pauses need to be present to distinguish, or there has to be an unambiguous rule of decomposition, which I don't believe there can be, but I will wait further commenting upon my reading of what youve already written onthe topic. --gejyspa On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 3:50 PM, selpa'i wrote: > Am 14.09.2012 21:32, schrieb Michael Turniansky: > > Just a minor grammatical point about your letter, van.. You cannot >> cluster a cmavo together with another if it starts with a vowel (as you >> have done below with *"i.iua" and *".iuisai" without putting a pause >> (period or space in written lojban) before it. So that should be either = ".i >> uisai" or ".i.uisai" >> > > Without wanting to re-open this debate from a while ago, I still don't > like seeing this kind of information being spread. Neither a pause nor a > period nor a space is needed in written or spoken Lojban. ".iua" > unambiguously fragments into .i ua. I'd repeat myself and say that ua is = a > CV, but I don't want to get falsely flamed again for saying the truth. Fo= r > completeness sake however, I should add that there are no words that begi= n > with a (phonetic) vowel in Lojban, so the rule you formulated above just > never applies. What I'm saying might seem wrong or alien to you, but I've > done enough research and have thought about this topic at length. You are > free to reject it, of course. If you'd like to discuss this in more depth > (since it probably makes no sense to you here without the proper context)= , > feel free to open a new thread. > I'd like to mention that because you are by far not the only one who gets > confused about Lojban's "denpa bu", I created a slightly altered way of > writing lojban some time ago which makes it impossible to mispronounce > things and which always clearly indicates what's going on > phonologically/morphologically (the goal being actual full isomorphism > within the limits of a simple latin alphabet using only a few diacritics)= . > Some people like it, some don't. Some like it but don't use it, others > actually have adopted it. It does help people though to not be confused > about Lojban's phonology. > Bottomline, you really don't need a "denpa bu" in the sentence in questio= n. > > mu'o mi'e la selpa'i > > -- > pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo > > do=E1=BB=8B m=C3=A8lbi mlen=C3=AC'u > .i do c=C3=A0tlu ki'u > ma fe la x=C3=A0mpre =C5=ADu > .i do t=C3=ACnsa c=C3=A0rmi > gi'e s=C3=ACrji se t=C3=A0rmi > .i ta=E1=BB=8B bo pu c=C3=ACtka lo gr=C3=A0na ku > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@** > googlegroups.com . > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** > group/lojban?hl=3Den . > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --047d7bdc876e0e8ed104c9af9b7e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0 Well, of course, I haven't seen the debate yet = (still being more than 3 weeks behind on email) and therefore don't kno= w if you've already addressed the following question, but EVEN IF I acc= ept arguendo your statement that "ua" is a CV (although I don'= ;t), then you must ALSO assert that "iu" is a CV. So how do you d= istinguish between "iu isai..." and =C2=A0"i ui sai..."= if all the person put down (as here) was "iuisai..."? (And let&#= 39;s not forget that plenty of combinations like "iau" are valid = in names and fu'ivla and are different than "i au and ia u" = =C2=A0The pauses need to be present to distinguish, or there has to be an u= nambiguous rule of decomposition, which I don't believe there can be, b= ut I will wait further commenting upon my reading of what youve already wri= tten onthe topic.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gej= yspa

On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 3:50 = PM, selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 14.09.2012 21:32, schrieb Michael Turnian= sky:

Just a minor grammatical point about your letter, van.. You cannot cluster = a cmavo together with another if it starts with a vowel (as you have done b= elow with *"i.iua" and *".iuisai" without putting a pau= se (period or space in written lojban) before it. So that should be either = ".i uisai" or ".i.uisai"

Without wanting to re-open this debate from a while ago, I still don't = like seeing this kind of information being spread. Neither a pause nor a pe= riod nor a space is needed in written or spoken Lojban. ".iua" un= ambiguously fragments into .i ua. I'd repeat myself and say that ua is = a CV, but I don't want to get falsely flamed again for saying the truth= . For completeness sake however, I should add that there are no words that = begin with a (phonetic) vowel in Lojban, so the rule you formulated above j= ust never applies. What I'm saying might seem wrong or alien to you, bu= t I've done enough research and have thought about this topic at length= . You are free to reject it, of course. If you'd like to discuss this i= n more depth (since it probably makes no sense to you here without the prop= er context), feel free to open a new thread.
I'd like to mention that because you are by far not the only one who ge= ts confused about Lojban's "denpa bu", I created a slightly a= ltered way of writing lojban some time ago which makes it impossible to mis= pronounce things and which always clearly indicates what's going on pho= nologically/morphologically (the goal being actual full isomorphism within = the limits of a simple latin alphabet using only a few diacritics). Some pe= ople like it, some don't. Some like it but don't use it, others act= ually have adopted it. It does help people though to not be confused about = Lojban's phonology.
Bottomline, you really don't need a "denpa bu" in the sentenc= e in question.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

--
pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo

do=E1=BB=8B m=C3=A8lbi mlen=C3=AC'u
=C2=A0 =C2=A0.i do c=C3=A0tlu ki'u
ma fe la x=C3=A0mpre =C5=ADu
=C2=A0 =C2=A0.i do t=C3=ACnsa c=C3=A0rmi
gi'e s=C3=ACrji se t=C3=A0rmi
=C2=A0 =C2=A0.i ta=E1=BB=8B bo pu c=C3=ACtka lo gr=C3=A0na ku
=


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