Received: from mail-qa0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]:44342) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TCdBq-0000Xw-Lo; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 14:12:55 -0700 Received: by qadz32 with SMTP id z32sf218009qad.16 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 14:12:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=fdCJ6XMqKdv5pj6DI1fwWFwnAzSaOFeUL0+1f8rBNB4=; b=EX2UmgccXmjb784KZjOq0m5jqh15Tv1rOyMAccVodGMsuVbCPd+oxvqa3dhNYX2uLh FPAA1ShodXVpNUthfG+e8xrqKaf3vCgc4GxJgAmjmXsAtPBJQ+j0+mVJQqPrRtkUQbLA 8x2N79mseuwEHSZTZAZKDSoC9wjZzsjycYpSAr99GlYWtnM6toZa9I9gXsz0BDFTdoaU 3/SPlZB3NJeByUBziHbyyw7Dx9T9TgSmfTqeNs7OdhIUQHn0jRZRQ7LHN13GCjHXQfS/ cFx0wT28e4MKbY0INxyvi5yitDTCJYzRHyJIi+momeMpqGsySR9sWT/S8ixWyh0yXeXz UaGg== Received: by 10.50.91.168 with SMTP id cf8mr443731igb.0.1347657153901; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 14:12:33 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.55.155 with SMTP id u27ls10277367ibg.8.gmail; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 14:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.50.214.2 with SMTP id nw2mr270701igc.2.1347657153157; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 14:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.50.214.2 with SMTP id nw2mr270699igc.2.1347657153140; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 14:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-f182.google.com (mail-ob0-f182.google.com [209.85.214.182]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id dd6si233190igc.0.2012.09.14.14.12.33 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 14 Sep 2012 14:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.182 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.182; Received: by obbun3 with SMTP id un3so6951252obb.41 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 14:12:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.182.152.65 with SMTP id uw1mr2725076obb.91.1347657152835; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 14:12:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.76.132.2 with HTTP; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 14:12:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <5051E59B.205@gmx.de> <2388423.coKpO4eTEZ@caracal> From: ".arpis." Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 17:12:12 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Yacht To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.182 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0444ef03dfb1d404c9afe11b X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --f46d0444ef03dfb1d404c9afe11b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Yes, but there's a difference in degree (in my mind) between specific enough to necessitate a lujvo and too specific to warrant one. Note that I did use a lujvo and not the tanru {surla bloti}. We don't need (or want) a lujvo for "programming language theory computer lab", which is where I'm currently sitting (lojban.org is down so I don't have the translations of the terms available, but you get my point). It is in lojban's philosophy (in stark contrast to English) _not_ to overspecify) If I wanted to talk about a yacht, (and I meant specifically a yacht and not just a boat intended for leisure purposes that happened to be a yacht; i.e. the yacht-ness was important), I would be inclined to go for a stage 2 fu'ivla e.g. {lo me la iat}. On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 4:19 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 1:00 PM, .arpis. wrote: > >> It seems to me against the spirit of lojban to try to define a lujvo to >> mean something so specific (and culturally specific) as "yacht"; I'd use >> {surblo} to mean "boat used for relaxation" and let context disambiguate >> whether I meant cruise ship or yacht. > > > The entire /point/ of lujvo is to have specific meanings. Tanru are the > general, ill-defined ones. > > >> On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 9:35 AM, Betsemes wrote: >> >>> On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 8:31 AM, Jonathan Jones >>> wrote: >>> > My only objection to the use of sivni is that sivni is private as in >>> private >>> > thoughts, but I don't really have a better alternative. "Private >>> property" >>> > isn't property kept hidden or in secret, it's merely something owned >>> by an >>> > individual (or sometimes a small group of individuals like in the case >>> of >>> > family-owned and timeshares). But as I said, I don't have any good >>> > alternatives- I don't think pukypreposblo is better. >>> >>> pukypreposblo = pluka ke prenu ponse bloti >>> >>> The objection I have about this is that a yacht is not necessarily >>> private in terms of possession, but it's private in terms of usage. A >>> cruise ship holds many passengers which are brought together by a >>> cruise ship agency, and many of those passengers most likely don't >>> know each other. A yacht may be owned by a yacht charter business, and >>> many are; but it's mostly chartered by families or group of friends, >>> or maybe even by coworkers; so it's more likely privately *used*. >>> >>> And yes, that's my uncertainty about sivni; it has "private" on its >>> definition, but it seemed to be more about confidentiality althought I >>> was not sure. >>> >>> mu'o mi'e betsemes >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .arpis. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- mu'o mi'e .arpis. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --f46d0444ef03dfb1d404c9afe11b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, but there's a difference in degree (in my mind) between specific e= nough to necessitate a lujvo and too specific to warrant one. Note that I d= id use a lujvo and not the tanru {surla bloti}. We don't need (or want)= a lujvo for "programming language theory computer lab", which is= where I'm currently sitting (lojban.org<= /a> is down so I don't have the translations of the terms available, bu= t you get my point). It is in lojban's philosophy (in stark contrast to= English) _not_ to overspecify)

If I wanted to talk about a yacht, (and I meant specifically a yacht an= d not just a boat intended for leisure purposes that happened to be a yacht= ; i.e. the yacht-ness was important), I would be inclined to go for a stage= 2 fu'ivla e.g. {lo me la iat}.

On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 4:19 PM, Jonathan Jo= nes <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 1:00 P= M, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:
It seems to me against the spirit of lojban to try to define a lujvo to mea= n something so specific (and culturally specific) as "yacht"; I&#= 39;d use {surblo} to mean "boat used for relaxation" and let cont= ext disambiguate whether I meant cruise ship or yacht.

The entire /point/ of lujvo is to have specific meanings. Ta= nru are the general, ill-defined ones.
=A0
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 9:35 AM, Betsemes <betsemes@gmail.com>= ; wrote:
eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
> My only objection to the use of sivni is that sivni is private as in p= rivate
> thoughts, but I don't really have a better alternative. "Priv= ate property"
> isn't property kept hidden or in secret, it's merely something= owned by an
> individual (or sometimes a small group of individuals like in the case= of
> family-owned and timeshares). But as I said, I don't have any good=
> alternatives- I don't think pukypreposblo is better.

pukypreposblo =3D pluka ke prenu ponse bloti

The objection I have about this is that a yacht is not necessarily
private in terms of possession, but it's private in terms of usage. A cruise ship holds many passengers which are brought together by a
cruise ship agency, and many of those passengers most likely don't
know each other. A yacht may be owned by a yacht charter business, and
many are; but it's mostly chartered by families or group of friends, or maybe even by coworkers; so it's more likely privately *used*.

And yes, that's my uncertainty about sivni; it has "private" = on its
definition, but it seemed to be more about confidentiality althought I
was not sure.

mu'o mi'e betsemes

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= --
mu'o mi'e .arpis.
=


--
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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai k= o cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to t= he Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
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--
mu'o mi= 'e .arpis.

--
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