On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at= 5:11 PM, selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de> wrote:

Am 14.09.2012 22:52, schrieb Michael Turniansky:

=C2=A0 Well, of course, I haven't seen the debate yet (still being more= than 3 weeks behind on email) and therefore don't know if you've a= lready addressed the following question,

It happened long ago, I can't remember when exactly, but it's been = almost a year, but at least half a year.

but EVEN IF I accept arguendo your statement that "ua" is a CV (a= lthough I don't), then you must ALSO assert that "iu" is a CV= .

Yes, iu is CV (bearing though that this C is not the same type of C that is= used to create brivla clusters under the current rules. changing this woul= d in theory be possible however, which would cause things like bioka to be = CCVCV brivla. not currently the case, however.)

So how do you distinguish between "iu isai..." and =C2=A0"i = ui sai..." if all the person put down (as here) was "iuisai...&qu= ot;?

The problem here is because it is technically accepted to elide denpa bu wh= en a space is present, people aren't sure when denpa bu is actually nec= essary and when it isn't. It also makes people confused about what the = point of the letter is. I encourage to always include all denpa bu that are= necessary and to elide all that can be elided if one so wishes.=C2=A0

If you write down "iu isai" then that becomes {iu .i sai}. If you= write it down without spaces, which is the more interesting case and more = closely resembles the actual speechstream, then you have to make sure the a= utomatic initial denpa bu that people are using does what you want it to do= . {iuisai} would become {.i ui sai} if you allow denpa bu to be elided. If = not, it would be ungrammatical (because after iu, the next i is not a lojba= n word and it fails to parse).

=C2=A0
=C2=A0 What are you talking ab= out? =C2=A0The next i IS a lojbanic word, and parses fine (If you are asser= ting that a sentence may not be simply an attitudinal, that's not true.= =C2=A0Or perhaps you are asserting that sai may not stand alone, which is = also untrue). =C2=A0And I never suggested he couldn't elide the denpa b= u. =C2=A0I explicitly said:

.i u= isai" or ".i.uisai"

=C2=A0
=C2=A0 I don't use usually use denpa bu except be= fore "i" or in educational settings.

(And let's not forget that plenty of combinations like "iau" = are valid in names and fu'ivla and are different than "i au and ia= u" =C2=A0The pauses need to be present to distinguish, or there has t= o be an unambiguous rule of decomposition, which I don't believe there = can be, but I will wait further commenting upon my reading of what youve al= ready written onthe topic.

There is indeed such a rule of decomposition and only because it exists can= I in good conscience preach this. You just need to be aware that the semi-= vowels are not vowels, they are [w] and [j] in IPA respectively. If you con= sider speechstreams, then those are distinct from the actual Lojban vowels = (V). "iua" is only possible in cmevla and zi'evla. A cmavo ca= n't have three VVV in a row, so the cmavo clusters always decompose una= mbiguously. If I didn't answer all your questions, please feel free to = through more questions or tests at me.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Yes, I have no misunderstanding about [w] = and [j]. =C2=A0But they are a natural artifact of the pronouncing of two vo= wels close together. =C2=A0For example, if you (as some do, but I don't= ) say that the name le jegvo cevni is la'o jegvo iaue jegvo, you can pr= onounce it as a single vocalic "flow" from one to the other, and = they naturally cause a [w] and [j] (and an=C2=A0[a=CA=8A=CC=AF])=C2=A0to appear (Go ahead, I'll w= ait (*hums*)) =C2=A0That's all the morphologic rule means, and why it&#= 39;s necessary to separate out the vowel pairs that should NOT be pronounce= d as diphthongs or semivowels+vowel. =C2=A0Nonetheless, I will agree that i= n speech, it's not necessary to pause between the words, because the pr= onunciation as a semivowel and not a vowel will naturally cause the break, = but in print (which is what we were addressing here, in case you've for= gotten), it IS, because otherwise the decomposition is ambiguous.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa

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