On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 8:32 AM, selpa'i <sel= adwa@gmx.de> wrote:

=20 =20 =20
Am 16.09.2012 05:56, schrieb Michael Turniansky:

If you write down "iu isai" then that becomes {iu .i = sai}. If you write it down without spaces, which is the more interesting case and more closely resembles the actual speechstream, then you have to make sure the automatic initial denpa bu that people are using does what you want it to do. {iuisai} would become {.i ui sai} if you allow denpa bu to be elided. If not, it would be ungrammatical (because after iu, the next i is not a lojban word and it fails to parse).

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 What are you talking about? =C2=A0The next i IS a loj= banic word, and parses fine (If you are asserting that a sentence may not be simply an attitudinal, that's not true. =C2=A0Or perhaps you are asserting that sai may not stand alone, which is also untrue).=C2=A0

No, I don't assert either of those things. Please re-read what I said.

And I never suggested he couldn't elide the denpa bu. = =C2=A0I explicitly said:

.i uisai" or ".i.uisai"

You wrote:

So how do you distinguish between "iu isai..." and=C2=A0 "i ui sai..." if all the person put= down (as here) was "iuisai..."?

And I answered that question, once with and once without denpa bu elision being allowed. If denpa bu cannot be elided, then "iuisai&= quot; must become *{iu i sai}, which is not grammatical, because just "i= " [i] is not a Lojban word. {.i} [=CA=94i] would be the Lojban word, but "i" is not. A Lojban word cannot begin with a vowel.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 I don't use usually use denpa bu except before &q= uot;i" or in educational settings.

Do you use it or not? You can do what you want, I just recommend always including all necessary denpa bu because it causes less confusion about the rules and is a better representation of what is going on morphologically.

(And let's not forget that plenty of combinations like "iau" are valid in names and fu'ivla and are = different than "i au and ia u" =C2=A0The pauses need to be = present to distinguish, or there has to be an unambiguous rule of decomposition, which I don't believe there can be, but = I will wait further commenting upon my reading of what youve already written onthe topic.

There is indeed such a rule of decomposition and only because it exists can I in good conscience preach this. You just need to be aware that the semi-vowels are not vowels, they are [w] and [j] in IPA respectively. If you consider speechstreams, then those are distinct from the actual Lojban vowels (V). "iua" is only possible in cmevla a= nd zi'evla. A cmavo can't have three VVV in a row, so the = cmavo clusters always decompose unambiguously. If I didn't answer all your questions, please feel free to through more questions or tests at me.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Yes, I have no misunderstanding about [w] and [= j]. =C2=A0But they are a natural artifact of the pronouncing of two vowels close together. =C2=A0For example, if you (as some do, b= ut I don't) say that the name le jegvo cevni is la'o jegvo= iaue jegvo, you can pronounce it as a single vocalic "flow"= ; from one to the other, and they naturally cause a [w] and [j] (and an=C2=A0[a=CA=8A=CC=AF])=C2=A0to appear (Go ahead, I'll wait (*hums*))=C2=A0

I would say for example:
la. iaues. cu cevni lo jegvo
[la=CA=94 'ja.w=C9=9Bs=CA=94 =CA=83u '=CA=83=C9=9Bvni lo =CA=92= =C9=9Bgvo]

iaues can only be ['ja.w=C9=9Bs] in Lojban, otherwise you'd end= up with a syllable without onset */es/ and Lojban doesn't like that. That'= ;s why it inserts denpa bu (which is a consonant) in otherwise empty onsets, just like some natlangs do (e.g. German).

[w] and [j] are not just natural artifacts, as you say. They have distinct properties in the morphology in that they don't act as vowels at all. This is not just a case of different ways of realizing a set of phonemes.

That's all the morphologic rule means, and why it's necessary to separate out the vowel pairs that should NOT be pronounced as diphthongs or semivowels+vowel. =C2=A0Nonetheless= , I will agree that in speech, it's not necessary to pause between the words, because the pronunciation as a semivowel and not a vowel will naturally cause the break, but in print (which is what we were addressing here, in case you've forgotten), it IS, because otherwise the decomposition is ambiguous.

The idea is that speech and writing are the same thing, that's one of Lojban's selling points, and, to a large degree, it works even without modifications to the script. The decomposition is not ambiguous. The string of cmavo gets decomposed from left to right, and if you reach a word that can't exist (like "i"), you = know it's not a grammatical text. I think I have shown how the decomposition works in the string in question.
mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
--=20
pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo

do=E1=BB=8B m=C3=A8lbi mlen=C3=AC'u
   .i do c=C3=A0tlu ki'u
ma fe la x=C3=A0mpre =C5=ADu
   .i do t=C3=ACnsa c=C3=A0rmi
gi'e s=C3=ACrji se t=C3=A0rmi
   .i ta=E1=BB=8B bo pu c=C3=ACtka lo gr=C3=A0na ku
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