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Subject: Re: [lojban] baby words, sort of: catlu vs. zgana
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On Friday, September 14, 2012 2:35:41 AM UTC+4, tsani wrote:
>
> Actually, those two examples don't relate as much as you'd like. Vision 
> occurs when light reflects off an object into the eye, and is afterward 
> processed by the brain (the brain does *a lot* of work to see). "Seeing 
> events" doesn't make much sense, because sight is just a primitive based on 
> capturing light. You see the object regardless of its state.


OK, how would you say "I see an apple falling"? 

>
> As for desire, this can only apply to states. Wanting an apple doesn't 
> really mean *anything*. Seeing an apple does.
>
> .i mi'e la tsani mu'o
>
> On 13 September 2012 14:32, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com <javascript:>>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, September 13, 2012 8:07:23 PM UTC+4, stevo wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 10:17 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> When we say "I see you" we actually mean "I see you standing/present in 
>>>> front of me/{co'e}/whatever". 
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't understand why you think "I see you" is short for a longer 
>>> phrase, especially one that is too specific and often simply not true. 
>>>
>>
>> I just think the sentence "I want [to eat] an apple" is somewhat parallel 
>> to "I see you [standing]". If in the first one we must use {tu'a} then the 
>> same should be true for the second sentence.
>>
>>>
>>> stevo
>>>
>>> So {mi viska do} is just a handy emulation of natlangs when it should 
>>>> really be expressed as {mi viska tu'a do}. But as some lojbanists already 
>>>> do this illegal trick then let's make it official.
>>>>
>>>> Therefore 
>>>> {mi ganse lo du'u crino} - I sense something as being green (i.e. I see 
>>>> it).
>>>> {mi ganse lo du'u lo cladu ku crino} -  I sense some loud object as 
>>>> green (i.e. I see it)
>>>> {mi ganse [tu'a] lo cladu}   - I sense some loud object [nothing is 
>>>> said how I sense it, it's might be a synonym of the previous example].
>>>>
>>>> So there is no conflict between the object and the type of sensing 
>>>> it. In first case you use {tu'a} or just drop it. In the second case you 
>>>> use {lo su'u/nu/du'u/...}
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> We have no gismu for TASTE ( {vrusi} has no place for experiencer) and 
>>>>> TOUCH-FEEL ({pencu} is now what we need. when i touch {ko'a} with a 
>>>>> screwdriver i touch-feel the screwdriver but touch {ko'a} ).
>>>>> We would also need to allow in {sumne2} not only the object being 
>>>>> smelled but the type of smell and abstraction for the combination of the 
>>>>> object and it's smell.
>>>>>  
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sunday, July 15, 2012 12:37:26 AM UTC+4, Robin Powell wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 01:32:54PM -0700, djandus wrote: 
>>>>>>>> > On Friday, November 18, 2011 3:48:51 PM UTC-6, xorxes wrote: 
>>>>>>>> > > 
>>>>>>>> > > On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 5:15 AM, Robin Lee Powell wrote: 
>>>>>>>> > > > This is really interesting stuff!  Can you make sure it 
>>>>>>>> > > > appears on some appropriate BPFK page? 
>>>>>>>> > > > 
>>>>>>>> > > > I completely agree with you about zgana, and I'm inclined to 
>>>>>>>> > > > agree with you about ganse; make sure they get notes in the 
>>>>>>>> > > > gismu setion please. 
>>>>>>>> > >  
>>>>>>>> > > I'm not in much of a wiki-editing mood lately, so I'll leave 
>>>>>>>> > > that to somepony else. 
>>>>>>>> > > 
>>>>>>>> > Dude, did this really never get done? 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I linked to the thread on the gismu issues page, a few hours ago. 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -Robin 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> http://singinst.org/ :  Our last, best hope for a fantastic 
>>>>>>>> future. 
>>>>>>>> .i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i danfu lu na go'i li'u 
>>>>>>>> .e 
>>>>>>>> lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e lu go'i na'i li'u .e 
>>>>>>>> lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e lu lo mamta be do cu 
>>>>>>>> sofybakni li'u 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  -- 
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
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>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/**
>>>> msg/lojban/-/CM2jEXP7CeUJ<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/CM2jEXP7CeUJ>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
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>>>>
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>>>> group/lojban?hl=en <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en>.
>>>>
>>>
>>>  -- 
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>
>

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<br><br>On Friday, September 14, 2012 2:35:41 AM UTC+4, tsani wrote:<blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-lef=
t: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">Actually, those two examples don't re=
late as much as you'd like. Vision occurs when light reflects off an object=
 into the eye, and is afterward processed by the brain (the brain does *a l=
ot* of work to see). "Seeing events" doesn't make much sense, because sight=
 is just a primitive based on capturing light. You see the object regardles=
s of its state.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>OK, how would you say "I se=
e an apple falling"?&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;=
"><div>

<br></div><div>As for desire, this can only apply to states. Wanting an app=
le doesn't really mean *anything*. Seeing an apple does.</div><div><br></di=
v><div>.i mi'e la tsani mu'o<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">

On 13 September 2012 14:32, la gleki <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"javas=
cript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"OTfcqYjTZUMJ">gleki.is..=
.@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<br><br>On Thursday, September 13, 2012 8:07:23 PM UTC+4, stevo wrote:<div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 10:17 AM, la gleki <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a>gleki.i=
s...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div><div><br></div></div><br><div><br></div><div>When we say "I see you" w=
e actually mean "I see you standing/present in front of me/{co'e}/whatever"=
. </div></blockquote>

<div><br></div><div>I don't understand why you think "I see you" is short f=
or a longer phrase, especially one that is too specific and often simply no=
t true.&nbsp;</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>

I just think the sentence "I want [to eat] an apple" is somewhat parallel t=
o "I see you [standing]". If in the first one we must use {tu'a} then the s=
ame should be true for the second sentence.</div>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br=
></div><div>stevo</div><div><br></div>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div>So {mi viska do} is just a ha=
ndy emulation of natlangs when it should really be expressed as {mi viska t=
u'a do}. But as some lojbanists already do this illegal trick then let's ma=
ke it official.</div>



<div><br></div><div>Therefore&nbsp;</div><div>{mi ganse lo du'u crino} - I =
sense something as being green (i.e. I see it).</div><div>{mi ganse lo du'u=
 lo cladu ku crino} -&nbsp;&nbsp;I sense some loud object as green (i.e. I =
see it)<br>



</div><div>{mi ganse [tu'a] lo cladu}&nbsp;&nbsp; - I sense some loud objec=
t [nothing is said how I sense it, it's might be a synonym of the previous =
example].<br></div><div><br></div><div>So there is no conflict between the =
object and the type of sensing it.&nbsp;In first case you use {tu'a} or jus=
t drop it. In the second case you use {lo su'u/nu/du'u/...}</div>



<div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
><div><br></div><div>We have no gismu for TASTE ( {vrusi} has no place for =
experiencer) and TOUCH-FEEL ({pencu} is now what we need. when i touch {ko'=
a} with a screwdriver i touch-feel the screwdriver but touch&nbsp;{ko'a}&nb=
sp;).</div>



<div>We would also need&nbsp;to allow&nbsp;in&nbsp;{sumne2}&nbsp;not only t=
he object being smelled but the type of smell and abstraction for the combi=
nation of the object and it's smell.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><br><br></d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><di=
v><br></div><div>On Sunday, July 15, 2012 12:37:26 AM UTC+4, Robin Powell w=
rote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 01:32:54PM -0700, djandus wrote:
<br>&gt; On Friday, November 18, 2011 3:48:51 PM UTC-6, xorxes wrote:
<br>&gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt; On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 5:15 AM, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; This is really interesting stuff! &nbsp;Can you make sur=
e it
<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; appears on some appropriate BPFK page?
<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; I completely agree with you about zgana, and I'm incline=
d to
<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; agree with you about ganse; make sure they get notes in =
the
<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; gismu setion please.
<br>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;<br>&gt; &gt; I'm not in much of a wiki-editing mood la=
tely, so I'll leave
<br>&gt; &gt; that to somepony else.
<br>&gt; &gt;
<br>&gt; Dude, did this really never get done?
<br>
<br>I linked to the thread on the gismu issues page, a few hours ago.
<br>
<br>-Robin
<br>
<br>--=20
<br><a href=3D"http://singinst.org/" target=3D"_blank">http://singinst.org/=
</a> : &nbsp;Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
<br>.i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i danfu lu na go'i li'u .e
<br>lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e lu go'i na'i li'u .e
<br>lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e lu lo mamta be do cu sofybakn=
i li'u
<br></blockquote></div></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>

<p></p>

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</div></div></div></blockquote></div><br>
</blockquote><div>

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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
</blockquote>

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