On Sat, Sep 22, 2012 at 9:18 AM, la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

I should make my point more clear.

Look at the following= .

prami x1 loves/feels strong affectionate de= votion towards x2 (object/state).
dirba x1 is dear/precious/= darling to x2; x1 is emotionally valued by x2;=A0x1 may be a specific ob= ject, a commodity (mass), an event, or a property

pluka x1 (event/state) seems pleasant to/pleases x2 under c= onditions x3.
melbi=A0x1 is beautiful/pleasant to x2 in asp= ect x3 (ka) by aesthetic standard x4.

And last but= not least

cirko -cri-=A0x1 loses person/thing x2 at/near x3; x1 loses prope= rty/feature x2 in conditions/situation x3;=A0x2 may be a specific object= , a commodity (mass), an event (rare for cirko), or a property.<= /div>

This last example shows something mutce lo ka = cizra.

If we can easily interchange object= s and abstractions in {lo se prami, lo dirba, lo se cirko} omitting {tu'= ;a} then it would be reasonable to ask:

"What the hell is {tu'a} for?" If lojb= an is not consistent in using it at all, why not omit it all the time?<= /div>

Then we'll get those {mi sisku lo pe= nbi} (in la selpa'i=A0's dialect) and even {mi djica lo plis= e}.

On Monday, August 20, 2012 12:46:= 15 PM UTC+4, la gleki wrote:
Ag= ain Google Groups didn't let me resurrect this o= ld discussion. So please follow the link to follow the whole discussion.

And now it's my turn to ask the community once agai= n after 18 years of disinterest.

{djica}, {nitcu} and {= sisku}, for example, have all been

dealt with differently: {djica} only accepts events, {nitcu} still acc= epts
objects, and the solution for {sisku} was the weirdest: the = x2 place was
directly eliminated and replaced by only a property = of some inaccesible

entity, so that {le se sisku} is not the thing looked for, but a prope= rty
of said thing.
=A0

=
Why not treat them all the same?

The transparent case:

{mi djica lo tanxe} =3D &qu= ot;There is a box wanted by me"

{mi nitcu lo tanxe} =3D "There is a box needed by me"
<= div>{mi sisku lo tanxe} =3D "There is a box sought by me"

One more moment. Are there any other gismu t= hat have the same "problem"?=A0

On Tuesday, November 22, 1994 4:03:33 AM UTC+4, Jorge Llambias wro= te:
la lojbab cusku di'e
> Of course there is nothing strange about a = brivla relating two objects - a
> seeker and the thing known-and-soug= ht-after, and having a certain predicate
> relating them. =A0The prob= lem that I see is that there is more than one such
> predicate, and the choice is dependent on the specificity =A0(or is th= at
> definiteness %^) of x2 vs. its opacity, etc., and what the desir= e is of the
> seeker for the final state after finding.
The pro= blem is transparency vs opacity. Transparent references can be
specific or nonspecific, and that can be marked with the appropriate
qua= ntifiers, but we don't have any way to mark explicitly opaque reference= s.
The other properties that you mention, like desires of the seeker = for what
to do after (or rather if) the sought after thing is found, are not really<= br>to the point. If you want a place for them I guess you do need a lujvo.<= /p>
Also, in English, the meaning of "seek an object" has been = generalized
to "seek knowledge", where by "finding it", we mean tha= t we get to
know the truth value of some utterance. (I suppose that'= s what you call the
seeking of science.) I don't have a problem with= letting this metaphorical
extension into Lojban, but in any case this is not part of the opaque probl= em.
An interesting property of sisku as it is defined now, is that th= e lambda
variable of its property really never takes a value. Normally, = the lambda
variable of a property corresponds to one or more of the places of the
s= elbri (for example for {zmadu}, it's the x1 and x2) but for sisku, ther= e
is no place for the thing being sought, so there is no place that fits= the
lambda variable.
> WE have other cases in Lojban where the Lojban = word covers a misleading
> subset of the English meanings of the keyw= ords ("old" and "know" being two
> cases that com= e to mind).

BTW, because of my mail problems a month or so ago I never found out whe= ther
{citno} means "young", so that it only refers to living t= hings, or whether
it is more general. Would an "old car" in lo= jban be a {tolcitno karce} or
a {tolcnino karce}?
> In all such casesa we have learned to live w= ith the
> fact that the English word is tto broad and have come up wi= th lujvo for the
> alternative meanings. =A0Such lujvo can always exi= st, and if this whole
> issue of "lo" and "existence" blows away. the numb= er of distinctions we need
=A0to
> make may be reduced. =A0But I r= emain unconvinced of this - as pc said a while
> back in this discuss= ion - there are some predicates that embody a hidden
> abstraction involving one of the sumti, and we have to live with this<= /p>
What do you mean by "some predicates"? English verbs, like = "want", "need",
"look for", etc, or Lojban= predicates like {djica}, {nitcu}, {sisku}, etc.?

I totally agree that the English verbs can accept opaque references as d= irect
objects, without any marking. They also, in other contexts, can ta= ke transparent
direct objects.
Because of the logical aspect of Lo= jban, this can't work like that in Lojban,
and so the arguments are always transparent.
But, the fact is that th= e opaque meaning is often very useful for these
predicates, so what do w= e do?
I propose to find one solution for all such predicates, rather = than patches
for each of them. {djica}, {nitcu} and {sisku}, for example, have all been<= br>dealt with differently: {djica} only accepts events, {nitcu} still accep= ts
objects, and the solution for {sisku} was the weirdest: the x2 place = was
directly eliminated and replaced by only a property of some inaccesible
= entity, so that {le se sisku} is not the thing looked for, but a propertyof said thing.
Why not treat them all the same?
The transpare= nt case:

{mi djica lo tanxe} =3D "There is a box wanted by me"
{mi n= itcu lo tanxe} =3D "There is a box needed by me"
{mi sisku lo = tanxe} =3D "There is a box sought by me"
and the opaque cas= e:

{mi djica xe'e lo tanxe} =3D "I want a box (I don't care wh= ich)"
{mi nitcu xe'e lo tanxe} =3D "I need a box (I don= 9;t care which)"
{mi sisku xe'e lo tanxe} =3D "I seek a bo= x (I don't care which)"

(I don't mind using {lo'e} instead of {xe'e lo}, I think it = makes sense
as well.)
As things stand now, for the transparent cas= e I have to say:
{da poi tanxe zo'u mi djica tu'a da}
{mi nitcu lo tanxe}
{da poi tanxe zo'u mi sisku le ka du da}
W= hy so complicated?
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0mi'e la lojbab noi sisku l= oka lo danfu be le me zo sisku me'u nabmi
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 cu mansa roda

That doesn't make much sense to me. You probably mean {noi sisku lo = ka danfu
le me zo sisku me'u nabmi gi'e mansa roda}, otherwise y= ou are saying that
you are looking for something with property an answer= satisfies everyone,
but what is it that you look for? the answer, everyone? I think this is an<= br>unnecessarily complicated way to deal with {sisku}.
Jorge