Received: from mail-gg0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]:48256) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TFomI-0007Ie-Ev; Sun, 23 Sep 2012 09:11:42 -0700 Received: by ggnl2 with SMTP id l2sf3011930ggn.16 for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2012 09:11:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=sRI5g8KvzEIWoiMB0LXYDwCtx3JWzpC+vT/CWowSH9c=; b=CAs5SYq3ptJN5NV8zrJRhZQ6NumEetmaQgMQrD8z5jQc7oEkUt6jOvP28UJEcS2g5B 8zxbHen/yfvB+q5FX/k9tvV5jgQj+kFBxGgQTIRptlCI7/5rYV+kP6/PfSz50eKORxFB 5X1ELDOrh6jYEQPLykIxLhaoVltVdyDrIhtTZIWTT1aRFfrsi4KOfJEbi6D9BLt6K5pa Gp7/AdntO69Vubqn+XhJyZf5hucPyQJS76XvPEA2D1s3DkgWZibyqtiuZpNtXJqOCeVf wDZuMQTd+2HAmciQ7MaA6C89EZd0mEFL0HZjAVsB2Y25ymho4OyLqKznoBzPh1Icyylh 09mw== Received: by 10.52.72.16 with SMTP id z16mr1551481vdu.15.1348416683899; Sun, 23 Sep 2012 09:11:23 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.52.21.40 with SMTP id s8ls2141419vde.8.gmail; Sun, 23 Sep 2012 09:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.58.236.39 with SMTP id ur7mr2543138vec.25.1348416683217; Sun, 23 Sep 2012 09:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.58.236.39 with SMTP id ur7mr2543137vec.25.1348416683201; Sun, 23 Sep 2012 09:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vb0-f53.google.com (mail-vb0-f53.google.com [209.85.212.53]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id r14si767795vdu.1.2012.09.23.09.11.23 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 23 Sep 2012 09:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.53; Received: by vbbfc21 with SMTP id fc21so5475979vbb.26 for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2012 09:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.59.1.162 with SMTP id bh2mr2486263ved.13.1348416683056; Sun, 23 Sep 2012 09:11:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.92.48 with HTTP; Sun, 23 Sep 2012 09:11:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <6b39d3c2-39f6-40d0-a1bb-e99303a5db64@googlegroups.com> References: <6b39d3c2-39f6-40d0-a1bb-e99303a5db64@googlegroups.com> From: Jacob Errington Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 09:11:02 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Bridi math. Status? To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: nictytan@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.53 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=nictytan@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bdc808e671c9e04ca60b9e6 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / --047d7bdc808e671c9e04ca60b9e6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 There's an ambiguity in your system: {.i lo broda be ci da} would be {.i lo broda be li ci da}, but what if we want to talk about quantified sumti inside the linkargs? Seems like a major shortcoming. The only way that I can think of to eliminate articles is to do it like gua\spi, but there's no way at all that the entire lojban community will just shift to a tonal language. .i mi'e la tsani mu'o On 23 September 2012 01:31, la gleki wrote: > This article > on bridi math was written in 2010. No news since then? > May be we should develop bridi math after all? > > Here are my comments. > > ni'ai > > The nesting of be/bei/be'o gets a bit confusing after a while, and in some > cases wastes syllables. For that reason, I've coined ni'ai as a member of > NU to mean something like "x1 is the numerical result of calculation bridi under > system / interpretation x2". Eimi (other name?) has pointed out that this > is identical to an idea that he has had, which is "x1 is the result / value > / truth of the first empty / marked place in bridi under > system / interpretation x2" (my defintion). Basically, "le ni'ai brivla > x2 x3 ... " == "le bridi > be x2 bei x3 ...": it's a transform of le + be/bei/be'o into a NU structure > without the be/bei/be'o. > ... > > So with ni'ai, we get structures like "sumji ny le ni'ai pilji li re li > pai li xy" for "n + (2 * pi * x)". > > Well, saving space is a nice goal. But I can suggest another option, > namely extending rules a bit. > > If we make {be}={be fe lo} and {bei}={bei lo} then the example would > become even more compact. > sumji ny lo pilji be re bei pai bei xy" for "n + (2 * pi * x)". > Advantage: compact sentences, not for math only. No new experimental cmavo > added. > Disadvantage: camxes won't parse that. We need to make {be, bei} more > powerful. > > > To li Or Not To li > > Grammatically, in something like "x = t + 2" it is perfectly legal to do > either "li xy" for the first part or just "xy". In the first case, we are > clearly talking about the variable x. In the second case, we are using the > pro-sumti xy to stand in for the variable x. The second case is therefore > somewhat ambiguous; many things start with "x". However, in mathematical > texts confusion is unlikely to result, so it probably doesn't matter very > much, just be aware of it. It sometimes saves some syllables, but not > always (I prefer "sumji xy li ty" to "sumji xy boi ty", but that's a > stylistic preference). > > > So as you can see my answer is "Not to li". > > Other examples: > Math: "tan(pi/2) = infinity" > CLL: "li na'u tanjo te'u vei pai fe'i re ve'o du li ci'i" > Robin: "le tanjo be le se pilji be li pai bei li re du li ci'i" > gleki: "lo tanjo be se pilji be pai bei re cu du ci'i" > > English: "Length * Width * Depth = Volume" > CLL:"li ni'e ni clani te'u pi'i ni'e ni ganra te'u pi'i ni'e ni condi te'u > du li ni'e ni canlu" > Robin:"le ni'ai pilji le ni clani kei le ni ganra kei le ni condi cu du le > ni canlu" > gleki: "lo pilji be ni clani kei bei ni ganra kei bei ni condi cu du lo > ni canlu" > > Math:"f(x) + 1" > Robin:"sumji li pa le me fy be xy" or "sumji li pa le ni'ai me fy li xy" > or similar. > gleki: "sumji li pa le me fy be xy" or *"sumji li pa lo me fy be xy"* or > similar. > > > > Unsolved issues: > Robin's {gi'ui} looks very much like gua\spi's solution. If I had more > time I would definitely delve into this issue. Currently zo gi'ui mutce lo > ka cizra. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/KllD7oYVf18J. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --047d7bdc808e671c9e04ca60b9e6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There's an ambiguity in your system:

{.i lo broda be= ci da} would be {.i lo broda be li ci da}, but what if we want to talk abo= ut quantified sumti inside the linkargs?
Seems like a major short= coming. The only way that I can think of to eliminate articles is to do it = like gua\spi, but there's no way at all that the entire lojban communit= y will just shift to a tonal language.

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

On 23 September 2012 01:31, la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@g= mail.com> wrote:
This=A0article on bridi math was written in 2010. No news since then?
May be we should develop bridi math after all?

Her= e are my comments.

ni'ai

The nesting o= f be/bei/be'o gets a bit confusing after a while, and in some cases was= tes syllables. For that reason, I've coined ni'ai as a member of NU= to mean something like "x1 is the numerical result of calculation=A0<= a href=3D"http://teddyb.org/robin/bridi" rel=3D"" style=3D"color:rgb(109,12= 9,157);border-bottom-width:1px;border-bottom-style:solid;border-bottom-colo= r:transparent" target=3D"_blank">bridi=A0under system / interpretation = x2". Eimi (other name?) has pointed out that this is identical to an i= dea that he has had, which is "x1 is the result / value / truth of the= first empty / marked place in=A0bridi= =A0under system / interpretation x2" (my defintion). Basically, &q= uot;le ni'ai=A0brivl= a x2 x3 ..." =3D=3D "le bridi be x2 bei x3 ...": it'= s a transform of le + be/bei/be'o into a NU structure without the be/be= i/be'o.

...

So with ni= 9;ai, we get structures like "sumji ny le ni'ai pilji li re li pai= li xy" for "n + (2 * pi * x)".


Well, saving space is a nice goal. But I can suggest another= option, namely extending rules a bit.

If we m= ake {be}=3D{be fe lo} and {bei}=3D{bei lo} then the example would become ev= en more compact.
sumji ny lo pilji be re bei pai bei xy" for "n + (2 * pi * x= )".
Advantage: compact sentences, not for math only. No = new experimental cmavo added.
Disadvantage: camxes won't pars= e that. We need to make {be, bei} more powerful.


To li Or Not To li

Grammatically, in something like "x =3D t + 2" it is perfectly le= gal to do either "li xy" for the first part or just "xy"= ;. In the first case, we are clearly talking about the variable x. In the s= econd case, we are using the pro-sumti xy to stand in for the variable x. T= he second case is therefore somewhat ambiguous; many things start with &quo= t;x". However, in mathematical texts confusion is unlikely to result, = so it probably doesn't matter very much, just be aware of it. It someti= mes saves some syllables, but not always (I prefer "sumji xy li ty&quo= t; to "sumji xy boi ty", but that's a stylistic preference).<= /p>


So as you can see m= y answer is "Not to li".

Other examples:=
Math: "tan(pi/2) =3D infinity"
CLL: "li na= 9;u tanjo te'u vei pai fe'i re ve'o du li ci'i"
<= div>Robin: "le tanjo be le se pilji be li pai bei li re du li ci'i= "
gleki: =A0 "lo tanjo be se pilji be pai bei re cu du ci'= ;i"

English:=A0"Length * Width * Depth = =3D Volume"
CLL:"li ni'e ni clani te'u pi'i= ni'e ni ganra te'u pi'i ni'e ni condi te'u du li ni= 9;e ni canlu"
Robin:"le ni'ai pilji le ni clani kei le ni ganra kei le ni c= ondi cu du le ni canlu"
gleki: =A0"lo pilji be ni c= lani kei bei ni ganra kei bei ni condi cu du lo ni canlu"

Math:"f(x) + 1"
Robin:"sumji l= i pa le me fy be xy" or "sumji li pa le ni'ai me fy li xy&quo= t; or similar.
gleki: =A0"sumji li pa le me fy be xy" o= r "sumji li pa lo me fy be xy" or similar.



Unsolved issues:
Robin's {gi'ui} looks very much like gua\spi's solution= . If I had more time I would definitely delve into this issue. Currently zo= gi'ui mutce lo ka cizra.

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