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On 21 September 2012 15:24, Daniel Lyons <fusion@storytotell.org> wrote:

> On Friday, September 21, 2012 3:23:21 PM UTC-6, tsani wrote:
>>
>> {.i .u'u doi la daiv .i .e'anai ku'i mi na curmi le nu do go'i}
>> For this purpose you should use {lo} (using {le} here offers no benifits
>> really. There're almost no practical cases where {le nu} is ever needed.)
>> {.e'a} (and by extension {.e'anai}) is what we call an "irrealis
>> attitudinal". What that means is that it basically describes a non-real
>> world. {.e'anai do go'i} by *itself* means "I'm not letting you do that,"
>> whereas {.e'anai mi na curmi lo nu do go'i} means "I'm not allowing it to
>> not be the case that I allow you to do that," which sounds approximately as
>> semantically wrong in English as it does in Lojban :p.
>>
>
> Thanks for explaining all this. I was the least certain of this one in
> particular (and "ko xabju" but I didn't see a closer word for "abide", but
> I think the ambiguity is part of the fun of that movie).
>
> I take it either of these alternatives would be closer then:
>
>  - .u'u doi la .dev. .ie'anai go'i
>  - .u'u doi la .dev. .i ku'i mi na curmi lo nu do go'i
>
> Is that true?
>

Yes, those are much better :)
However, although I think it was unintentional, {.ie'anai} is meant to be
{.i .e'anai}, yes? Otherwise, {.ie'anai} is not valid.
Also, there is an important distinction to make between the various types
of negation that exist. What you use in the second alternative is called
contradictory negation; it makes to claim, simply denying a claim. A better
alternative would be to use polar opposite negation, in the form of {.i
ku'i mi to'e curmi lo nu do go'i}. We can form a lujvo to shorten this to
{.i mi tolcru lo nu do go'i}.
Finally, {go'i} only really works if there is a preceding sentence to which
{go'i} can refer. If Dave doesn't say anything, then that {go'i} is weird.
Using {co'e} would be better in this context, I think.


>
> Otherwise the pictures are pretty good. The "style" is a bit weird, but
>> that's simply due to being new.
>>
>
> Hopefully that will improve as I read more.
>

And spend time on IRC, I hope! :)


>
>
>> .i'osai ui .i lo cnino cu se jmina vau .a'o
>>
>
> Thanks! :)
>
> --
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--f46d043892a7839e3f04ca7df7f6
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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On 21 September 2012 15:24, Daniel Lyons <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:fusion@storytotell.org" target=3D"_blank">fusion@storytotell.org</a>&=
gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex">

<div class=3D"im">On Friday, September 21, 2012 3:23:21 PM UTC-6, tsani wro=
te:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">{.i .u&#39;u doi la daiv .i .e&#=
39;anai ku&#39;i mi na curmi le nu do go&#39;i}<div>

For this purpose you should use {lo} (using {le} here offers no benifits re=
ally. There&#39;re almost no practical cases where {le nu} is ever needed.)=
</div>

<div>{.e&#39;a} (and by extension {.e&#39;anai}) is what we call an &quot;i=
rrealis attitudinal&quot;. What that means is that it basically describes a=
 non-real world. {.e&#39;anai do go&#39;i} by *itself* means &quot;I&#39;m =
not letting you do that,&quot; whereas {.e&#39;anai mi na curmi lo nu do go=
&#39;i} means &quot;I&#39;m not allowing it to not be the case that I allow=
 you to do that,&quot; which sounds approximately as semantically wrong in =
English as it does in Lojban :p.</div>

</blockquote></div><div><br>Thanks for explaining all this. I was the least=
 certain of this one in particular (and &quot;ko xabju&quot; but I didn&#39=
;t see a closer word for &quot;abide&quot;, but I think the ambiguity is pa=
rt of the fun of that movie).<br>

<br>I take it either of these alternatives would be closer then:<br><br>=A0=
- .u&#39;u doi la .dev. .ie&#39;anai go&#39;i<br>=A0- .u&#39;u doi la .dev.=
 .i ku&#39;i mi na curmi lo nu do go&#39;i<br><br>Is that true?<br></div></=
blockquote>

<div><br></div><div>Yes, those are much better :)</div><div>However, althou=
gh I think it was unintentional, {.ie&#39;anai} is meant to be {.i .e&#39;a=
nai}, yes? Otherwise, {.ie&#39;anai} is not valid.</div><div>Also, there is=
 an important distinction to make between the various types of negation tha=
t exist. What you use in the second alternative is called contradictory neg=
ation; it makes to claim, simply denying a claim. A better alternative woul=
d be to use polar opposite negation, in the form of {.i ku&#39;i mi to&#39;=
e curmi lo nu do go&#39;i}. We can form a lujvo to shorten this to {.i mi t=
olcru lo nu do go&#39;i}.</div>

<div>Finally, {go&#39;i} only really works if there is a preceding sentence=
 to which {go&#39;i} can refer. If Dave doesn&#39;t say anything, then that=
 {go&#39;i} is weird. Using {co&#39;e} would be better in this context, I t=
hink.</div>

<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><br></div><div class=3D"i=
m"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;bord=
er-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">



<div>Otherwise the pictures are pretty good. The &quot;style&quot; is a bit=
 weird, but that&#39;s simply due to being new.</div></blockquote></div><di=
v><br>Hopefully that will improve as I read more.<br></div></blockquote>

<div><br></div><div>And spend time on IRC, I hope! :)</div><div>=A0</div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px =
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>=A0</div><div class=3D"im"><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid=
 rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">

<div>.i&#39;osai ui .i lo cnino cu se jmina vau .a&#39;o</div></blockquote>=
</div><div><br>Thanks! :)<br></div><div class=3D"im">

<p></p>

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</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

<p></p>

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