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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 03:22:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
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Subject: Re: [lojban] A new Lojbanic wiki (LMW). On the threshold of the 25th
 anniversary of Lojban
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On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 8:56:34 AM UTC+4, .alyn.post. wrote:
>
> Awesome Lindar, thank you for your replies. 
>
> I'd like to outline a problem I have right now and see how much 
> overlap there is with your ideas for this wiki. 
>
> I was recently invited to work on opencog[1].  Specifically I was 
> asked to modify my parser, jbogenturfa'i[2], to provide Lojban 
> abstract syntax trees to OpenCog to support the Natural Language 
> Processing (NLP) research happening there. 
>
> I believe that using Lojban for NLP research makes certain classes of 
> NLP problems go away, allowing you to focus on other potentially more 
> fruitful classes of problems instead.  The hypothesis is that these 
> other classes of problems, once explored and perhaps even solved, make 
> the first class of problems more tractable. 
> "assert(Lojban == NLP bootstrap)", if you will. 
>


This is totally awesome, the first hint that Lojban is indeed more  than an 
ordinary language.
I'll be waiting for some papers published by you describing your research.



> But, to borrow a phrase: 'Some people, when confronted with an NLP 
> problem, think "I know, I'll use Lojban."  Now they have two 
> problems.' 
>
> It is absolutely pointless to tell a researcher that the utterance: 
>
>   ".i ta mo" 
>
> creates the abstract syntax tree: 
>
>   '(text (I-clause (cmavo (I "i"))) 
>          (paragraphs 
>            (paragraph 
>              (sentence 
>                (term (sumti (KOhA-clause (cmavo (KOhA "ta"))))) 
>                (selbri (GOhA-clause (cmavo (GOhA "mo")))))))) 
>
> And expect that to be useful without a lot of additional support. 
> Stated another way: it is foolish to expect that researches at 
> OpenCog will spend *more* effort than I have learning Lojban.  They 
> have science stuff they need to be doing. 
>
> If I'm going to succeed in making Lojban part of OpenCog, I need to 
> provide reference quality context sensitive help for the grammar and 
> vocabulary so a researcher can make sense of what they're looking at, 
> above. 
>
> This could all be done with mediawiki: I essentially need a grammar 
> dictionary and grammar reference rolled into one, all linked together 
> using some templates.  The closest thing we now have to this is: 
>
>   http://vlasisku.lojban.org/ 
>
> And it would be nice to take this essential idea and make it richer: 
> wrap tutorials, examples, discussion, &c around it.  Possibly like 
> we do on the Where Are Your Keys? wiki with techniques, which all 
> have a template describing them: 
>
>   template: http://wiki.whereareyourkeys.org/Template:NewTechnique 
>   example:  http://wiki.whereareyourkeys.org/Set-up   
>
> Is this sort of thing compatible with what you have in mind?  Something 
> I could use to programatically link parts of a Lojban abstract syntax 
> tree to pages that answer questions like "WTF is KOhA?" 
>

For me Wiktionary is a useless website. 
We need a more strict database similar to jvs. If you can turn MediaWiki 
into such kind of database
using SemanticWiki plugins or something it would be really *banli*and we 
would get rid of jvs.

I'll approve it if it is able to
1. Autoredirect from {selprami} to => {selpa'i} etc.
2. have regexp search by fields (definition, notes, glosswords...)
3. have voting system for each word

-Alan 
>
> 1: http://opencog.org/ 
> 2: http://wiki.opencog.org/w/Jbogenturfahi 
>
> On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 09:09:46PM -0700, la .lindar. wrote: 
> >    On Monday, 24 September 2012 19:59:59 UTC-7, .alyn.post. wrote: 
> > 
> >      This is a project I could really find myself getting behind, and I 
> >      also have some concerns.  Would you, gleki, or someone else 
> involved 
> >      be willing to discuss them with me? 
> > 
> >    Yaaaaaaay! Enthusiasm! 
> > 
> > 
> >       * I'd like to hear at least a basic outline on the theory of why 
> the 
> >         existing Lojban wiki got to it's current (rubbish?) state and 
> what 
> >         will be different this time. 
> > 
> >    Abandonment of pages and generally a lack of any articles linking to 
> other 
> >    articles or any sense of anything linking to anything ever. Have you 
> ever 
> >    been caught in wiki hell before? I want to see that level of linkage 
> on 
> >    every wiki page. Also, slightly unrelated, but still awesome, we can 
> make 
> >    a page for the best-form lujvo and then redirect all possible 
> combinations 
> >    of rafsi to the best-scoring word (i.e. brodybroda redirects to 
> rodbo'a 
> >    and fukpyvalsi / fukyvalsi / fukyvla / fu'irvalsi / fukpyvla / etc. 
> >    redirects to fu'ivla), which may be a boon for using the website as a 
> >    dictionary tool. It would allow us to include discussion, examples, 
> and 
> >    more along side the definition of each word. 
> > 
> > 
> >       * Sort of to the same point: this community starts far more 
> >         projects than it finishes.  This impacts the wiki, because a 
> page 
> >         will get written but then becomes unmaintained and eventually 
> >         becomes part of the long tail of pages that are out of date but 
> >         still vaguely relevant.  Is starting this wiki also a commitment 
> >         to curate it?  Asked another way: is this project different from 
> >         the other projects that are started but not completed or 
> >         maintained? 
> > 
> >    Lindar actually gives two shits about it and is currently working on 
> the 
> >    dictionary project, which I hope will integrate with this. The big 
> reason 
> >    for MediaWiki of all things is that it lets a dumbshit like me create 
> Wiki 
> >    pages without having to understand complex concepts like 
> "programming" or 
> >    "computers", so I can just slap-dash a page together with a pretty 
> picture 
> >    (I can't embed pictures on tiki pages like on MediaWiki. This is a 
> huge 
> >    problem for me and one of my biggest complaints.) and call it a day. 
> > 
> > 
> >       * Last week I needed the redirect feature of Lojban's tiki 
> software 
> >         enabled.  I was able to contact Robin on IRC and ask him to 
> enable 
> >         it, and he did so later than day.  Who is the support person for 
> >         this wiki?  Any idea of how responsive you'll be? 
> > 
> >    This, unfortunately, cannot be answered by Lindar. 
> > 
> > 
> >          * I have several templates that I would like to use on this 
> wiki. 
> >            They require the Cite and ParserFunctions extensions.  Will 
> the 
> >            support person add these extensions please?  /me starts 
> timer. 
> > 
> >    Again, not by me. If this remains outside of lojban.org then it's 
> entirely 
> >    in the hands of the two people that've developed the page so far. 
> Either 
> >    way, not something with which I can help. 
> > 
> > 
> >      Thank you!  I have made a deep investment in mediawiki and use it 
> in 
> >      every other community I participate in.  I'd love to see [1]
> lojban.org 
> >      use this software, but I don't understand why it fixes and/or is 
> >      better than the current wiki. 
> > 
> >    I hope I've been a help with some of your questions. 
> >    -Lindar 
> > 
> >    -- 
> >    You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> Groups 
> >    "lojban" group. 
> >    To view this discussion on the web visit 
> >    [2]https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/6nvjZFs4A9sJ. 
> >    To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com<javascript:>. 
>
> >    To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
> >    lojban+un...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>. 
> >    For more options, visit this group at 
> >    http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. 
> > 
> > References 
> > 
> >    Visible links 
> >    1. http://lojban.org/ 
> >    2. https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/6nvjZFs4A9sJ 
>
> -- 
> .i ma'a lo bradi cu penmi gi'e du 
>

-- 
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To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/qWSzfo0RTyQJ.
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------=_Part_798_33493882.1348568564885
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<br><br>On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 8:56:34 AM UTC+4, .alyn.post. wrote:=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;bor=
der-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">Awesome Lindar, thank you for =
your replies.
<br>
<br>I'd like to outline a problem I have right now and see how much
<br>overlap there is with your ideas for this wiki.
<br>
<br>I was recently invited to work on opencog[1]. &nbsp;Specifically I was
<br>asked to modify my parser, jbogenturfa'i[2], to provide Lojban
<br>abstract syntax trees to OpenCog to support the Natural Language
<br>Processing (NLP) research happening there.
<br>
<br>I believe that using Lojban for NLP research makes certain classes of
<br>NLP problems go away, allowing you to focus on other potentially more
<br>fruitful classes of problems instead. &nbsp;The hypothesis is that thes=
e
<br>other classes of problems, once explored and perhaps even solved, make
<br>the first class of problems more tractable.
<br>"assert(Lojban =3D=3D NLP bootstrap)", if you will.
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>This is totally awesome=
, the first hint that Lojban is indeed more &nbsp;than an ordinary language=
.</div><div>I'll be waiting for some papers published by you describing you=
r research.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;pad=
ding-left: 1ex;">
<br>But, to borrow a phrase: 'Some people, when confronted with an NLP
<br>problem, think "I know, I'll use Lojban." &nbsp;Now they have two
<br>problems.'
<br>
<br>It is absolutely pointless to tell a researcher that the utterance:
<br>
<br>&nbsp; ".i ta mo"
<br>
<br>creates the abstract syntax tree:
<br>
<br>&nbsp; '(text (I-clause (cmavo (I "i")))
<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(paragraphs
<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(paragraph
<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(sentence
<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(term (sumti (KO=
hA-clause (cmavo (KOhA "ta")))))
<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(selbri (GOhA-cl=
ause (cmavo (GOhA "mo"))))))))
<br>
<br>And expect that to be useful without a lot of additional support.
<br>Stated another way: it is foolish to expect that researches at
<br>OpenCog will spend *more* effort than I have learning Lojban. &nbsp;The=
y
<br>have science stuff they need to be doing.
<br>
<br>If I'm going to succeed in making Lojban part of OpenCog, I need to
<br>provide reference quality context sensitive help for the grammar and
<br>vocabulary so a researcher can make sense of what they're looking at,
<br>above.
<br>
<br>This could all be done with mediawiki: I essentially need a grammar
<br>dictionary and grammar reference rolled into one, all linked together
<br>using some templates. &nbsp;The closest thing we now have to this is:
<br>
<br>&nbsp; <a href=3D"http://vlasisku.lojban.org/" target=3D"_blank">http:/=
/vlasisku.lojban.org/</a>
<br>
<br>And it would be nice to take this essential idea and make it richer:
<br>wrap tutorials, examples, discussion, &amp;c around it. &nbsp;Possibly =
like
<br>we do on the Where Are Your Keys? wiki with techniques, which all
<br>have a template describing them:
<br>
<br>&nbsp; template: <a href=3D"http://wiki.whereareyourkeys.org/Template:N=
ewTechnique" target=3D"_blank">http://wiki.whereareyourkeys.<wbr>org/Templa=
te:NewTechnique</a>
<br>&nbsp; example: &nbsp;<a href=3D"http://wiki.whereareyourkeys.org/Set-u=
p" target=3D"_blank">http://wiki.whereareyourkeys.<wbr>org/Set-up</a> &nbsp=
;
<br>
<br>Is this sort of thing compatible with what you have in mind? &nbsp;Some=
thing
<br>I could use to programatically link parts of a Lojban abstract syntax
<br>tree to pages that answer questions like "WTF is KOhA?"
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>For me Wiktionary is a useless website=
.&nbsp;</div><div>We need a more strict database similar to jvs. If you can=
 turn MediaWiki into such kind of database</div><div>using SemanticWiki plu=
gins or something it would be really <i>banli</i>and we would get rid of jv=
s.</div><div><br></div><div>I'll approve it if it is able to</div><div>1. A=
utoredirect from {selprami} to =3D&gt; {selpa'i} etc.</div><div>2. have reg=
exp search by fields (definition, notes, glosswords...)<br></div><div>3. ha=
ve voting system for each word<br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc s=
olid;padding-left: 1ex;">-Alan
<br>
<br>1: <a href=3D"http://opencog.org/" target=3D"_blank">http://opencog.org=
/</a>
<br>2: <a href=3D"http://wiki.opencog.org/w/Jbogenturfahi" target=3D"_blank=
">http://wiki.opencog.org/w/<wbr>Jbogenturfahi</a>
<br>
<br>On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 09:09:46PM -0700, la .lindar. wrote:
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;On Monday, 24 September 2012 19:59:59 UTC-7, .alyn.po=
st. wrote:
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;This is a project I could really find myself g=
etting behind, and I
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;also have some concerns. &nbsp;Would you, glek=
i, or someone else involved
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;be willing to discuss them with me?
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;Yaaaaaaay! Enthusiasm!
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; * I'd like to hear at least a basic outline o=
n the theory of why the
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; existing Lojban wiki got to it's curre=
nt (rubbish?) state and what
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; will be different this time.
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;Abandonment of pages and generally a lack of any arti=
cles linking to other
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;articles or any sense of anything linking to anything=
 ever. Have you ever
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;been caught in wiki hell before? I want to see that l=
evel of linkage on
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;every wiki page. Also, slightly unrelated, but still =
awesome, we can make
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;a page for the best-form lujvo and then redirect all =
possible combinations
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;of rafsi to the best-scoring word (i.e. brodybroda re=
directs to rodbo'a
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;and fukpyvalsi / fukyvalsi / fukyvla / fu'irvalsi / f=
ukpyvla / etc.
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;redirects to fu'ivla), which may be a boon for using =
the website as a
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;dictionary tool. It would allow us to include discuss=
ion, examples, and
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;more along side the definition of each word.
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; * Sort of to the same point: this community s=
tarts far more
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; projects than it finishes. &nbsp;This =
impacts the wiki, because a page
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; will get written but then becomes unma=
intained and eventually
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; becomes part of the long tail of pages=
 that are out of date but
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; still vaguely relevant. &nbsp;Is start=
ing this wiki also a commitment
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; to curate it? &nbsp;Asked another way:=
 is this project different from
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the other projects that are started bu=
t not completed or
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; maintained?
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;Lindar actually gives two shits about it and is curre=
ntly working on the
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;dictionary project, which I hope will integrate with =
this. The big reason
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;for MediaWiki of all things is that it lets a dumbshi=
t like me create Wiki
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;pages without having to understand complex concepts l=
ike "programming" or
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;"computers", so I can just slap-dash a page together =
with a pretty picture
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;(I can't embed pictures on tiki pages like on MediaWi=
ki. This is a huge
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;problem for me and one of my biggest complaints.) and=
 call it a day.
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; * Last week I needed the redirect feature of =
Lojban's tiki software
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; enabled. &nbsp;I was able to contact R=
obin on IRC and ask him to enable
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; it, and he did so later than day. &nbs=
p;Who is the support person for
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; this wiki? &nbsp;Any idea of how respo=
nsive you'll be?
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;This, unfortunately, cannot be answered by Lindar.
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;* I have several templates that =
I would like to use on this wiki.
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;They require the Cite and=
 ParserFunctions extensions. &nbsp;Will the
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;support person add these =
extensions please? &nbsp;/me starts timer.
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;Again, not by me. If this remains outside of <a href=
=3D"http://lojban.org" target=3D"_blank">lojban.org</a> then it's entirely
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;in the hands of the two people that've developed the =
page so far. Either
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;way, not something with which I can help.
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Thank you! &nbsp;I have made a deep investment=
 in mediawiki and use it in
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;every other community I participate in. &nbsp;=
I'd love to see [1]<a href=3D"http://lojban.org" target=3D"_blank">lojban.o=
rg</a>
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;use this software, but I don't understand why =
it fixes and/or is
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;better than the current wiki.
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;I hope I've been a help with some of your questions.
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;-Lindar
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;--
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;You received this message because you are subscribed =
to the Google Groups
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;"lojban" group.
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;To view this discussion on the web visit
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;[2]<a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/=
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<br>--=20
<br>.i ma'a lo bradi cu penmi gi'e du
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