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I think that using {go'i} in an out of context quotation is fine: mu'a

{.i la .alis. pu cusku lu na go'i li'u}

makes sense; it's actually what Alice said, and the listener treats the
{go'i} as a {co'e}, but recognizes that in context it was more specific.

Dave did say something immediately prior in the movie.

On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 11:04 PM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com>wrote:

> On 21 September 2012 15:24, Daniel Lyons <fusion@storytotell.org> wrote:
>
>> On Friday, September 21, 2012 3:23:21 PM UTC-6, tsani wrote:
>>>
>>> {.i .u'u doi la daiv .i .e'anai ku'i mi na curmi le nu do go'i}
>>> For this purpose you should use {lo} (using {le} here offers no benifits
>>> really. There're almost no practical cases where {le nu} is ever needed.)
>>> {.e'a} (and by extension {.e'anai}) is what we call an "irrealis
>>> attitudinal". What that means is that it basically describes a non-real
>>> world. {.e'anai do go'i} by *itself* means "I'm not letting you do that,"
>>> whereas {.e'anai mi na curmi lo nu do go'i} means "I'm not allowing it to
>>> not be the case that I allow you to do that," which sounds approximately as
>>> semantically wrong in English as it does in Lojban :p.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks for explaining all this. I was the least certain of this one in
>> particular (and "ko xabju" but I didn't see a closer word for "abide", but
>> I think the ambiguity is part of the fun of that movie).
>>
>> I take it either of these alternatives would be closer then:
>>
>>  - .u'u doi la .dev. .ie'anai go'i
>>  - .u'u doi la .dev. .i ku'i mi na curmi lo nu do go'i
>>
>> Is that true?
>>
>
> Yes, those are much better :)
> However, although I think it was unintentional, {.ie'anai} is meant to be
> {.i .e'anai}, yes? Otherwise, {.ie'anai} is not valid.
> Also, there is an important distinction to make between the various types
> of negation that exist. What you use in the second alternative is called
> contradictory negation; it makes to claim, simply denying a claim. A better
> alternative would be to use polar opposite negation, in the form of {.i
> ku'i mi to'e curmi lo nu do go'i}. We can form a lujvo to shorten this to
> {.i mi tolcru lo nu do go'i}.
> Finally, {go'i} only really works if there is a preceding sentence to
> which {go'i} can refer. If Dave doesn't say anything, then that {go'i} is
> weird. Using {co'e} would be better in this context, I think.
>
>
>>
>> Otherwise the pictures are pretty good. The "style" is a bit weird, but
>>> that's simply due to being new.
>>>
>>
>> Hopefully that will improve as I read more.
>>
>
> And spend time on IRC, I hope! :)
>
>
>>
>>
>>> .i'osai ui .i lo cnino cu se jmina vau .a'o
>>>
>>
>> Thanks! :)
>>
>> --
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>> "lojban" group.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
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>>
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>>
>
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>



-- 
mu'o mi'e .arpis.

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--e89a8fb1f84c86886504ca8500ae
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I think that using {go&#39;i} in an out of context quotation is fine: mu&#3=
9;a<br><br>{.i la .alis. pu cusku lu na go&#39;i li&#39;u}<br><br>makes sen=
se; it&#39;s actually what Alice said, and the listener treats the {go&#39;=
i} as a {co&#39;e}, but recognizes that in context it was more specific.<br=
>

<br>Dave did say something immediately prior in the movie.<br><br><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 11:04 PM, Jacob Errington <span d=
ir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nictytan@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">nict=
ytan@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">On 21 September 2012 15:24=
, Daniel Lyons <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fusion@storytotell.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">fusion@storytotell.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"im"><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex">

<div>On Friday, September 21, 2012 3:23:21 PM UTC-6, tsani wrote:<blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">{.i .u&#39;u doi la daiv .i .e&#39;anai ku&#3=
9;i mi na curmi le nu do go&#39;i}<div>



For this purpose you should use {lo} (using {le} here offers no benifits re=
ally. There&#39;re almost no practical cases where {le nu} is ever needed.)=
</div>

<div>{.e&#39;a} (and by extension {.e&#39;anai}) is what we call an &quot;i=
rrealis attitudinal&quot;. What that means is that it basically describes a=
 non-real world. {.e&#39;anai do go&#39;i} by *itself* means &quot;I&#39;m =
not letting you do that,&quot; whereas {.e&#39;anai mi na curmi lo nu do go=
&#39;i} means &quot;I&#39;m not allowing it to not be the case that I allow=
 you to do that,&quot; which sounds approximately as semantically wrong in =
English as it does in Lojban :p.</div>



</blockquote></div><div><br>Thanks for explaining all this. I was the least=
 certain of this one in particular (and &quot;ko xabju&quot; but I didn&#39=
;t see a closer word for &quot;abide&quot;, but I think the ambiguity is pa=
rt of the fun of that movie).<br>



<br>I take it either of these alternatives would be closer then:<br><br>=A0=
- .u&#39;u doi la .dev. .ie&#39;anai go&#39;i<br>=A0- .u&#39;u doi la .dev.=
 .i ku&#39;i mi na curmi lo nu do go&#39;i<br><br>Is that true?<br></div></=
blockquote>



<div><br></div></div><div>Yes, those are much better :)</div><div>However, =
although I think it was unintentional, {.ie&#39;anai} is meant to be {.i .e=
&#39;anai}, yes? Otherwise, {.ie&#39;anai} is not valid.</div><div>Also, th=
ere is an important distinction to make between the various types of negati=
on that exist. What you use in the second alternative is called contradicto=
ry negation; it makes to claim, simply denying a claim. A better alternativ=
e would be to use polar opposite negation, in the form of {.i ku&#39;i mi t=
o&#39;e curmi lo nu do go&#39;i}. We can form a lujvo to shorten this to {.=
i mi tolcru lo nu do go&#39;i}.</div>



<div>Finally, {go&#39;i} only really works if there is a preceding sentence=
 to which {go&#39;i} can refer. If Dave doesn&#39;t say anything, then that=
 {go&#39;i} is weird. Using {co&#39;e} would be better in this context, I t=
hink.</div>

<div class=3D"im">

<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><br></div><div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=
olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div>Otherwise the pictures are pretty good. The &quot;style&quot; is a bit=
 weird, but that&#39;s simply due to being new.</div></blockquote></div><di=
v><br>Hopefully that will improve as I read more.<br></div></blockquote>



<div><br></div></div><div>And spend time on IRC, I hope! :)</div><div class=
=3D"im"><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0=
 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>=A0</div><div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">



<div>.i&#39;osai ui .i lo cnino cu se jmina vau .a&#39;o</div></blockquote>=
</div><div><br>Thanks! :)<br></div><div>

<p></p>

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</div></div></blockquote></div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5=
"><br>

<p></p>

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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi=
&#39;e .arpis.<br><br>

<p></p>

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