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From: la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
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Subject: Re: [lojban] What place of nesting bridi {ce'u} refers to?
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On Tuesday, October 2, 2012 12:15:29 AM UTC+4, selpa'i wrote:
>
> Am 01.10.2012 22:04, schrieb Arnt Richard Johansen:=20
> > On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 12:56:59AM -0700, la gleki wrote:=20
> >=20
> >> These examples are pretty clear. No ambiguity. Now let's open Chapter=
=20
> 11.4=20
> >> http://dag.github.com/cll/11/4/=20
> >>=20
> >> 4.9)   la djan. cu zmadu la djordj. le ka mi prami ce'u=20
> >>         John exceeds George in-the property-of (I love X).=20
> >>=20
> >> This is something very strange.=20
> >> Let's imagine that I'm a boy and I meet a girl. I tell her=20
> >>=20
> >> {do melbi mi lo ka ce'u clani}=20
> >>=20
> >> Does {ce'u} refer to {do} or {mi}?=20
> > Neither. {ce'u} does not refer to anything, and that's sort of the whol=
e=20
> point. The clause refers to a =E2=80=9Cproperty=E2=80=9D of being tall *i=
n the abstract*,=20
> not that of someone in particular being tall.=20
>
> Yes, but the ce'u place gets filled later by one of the sumti in the=20
> parent bridi, and that is what the question was about.=20
>
> > * lo ka mi clani=20
> >    my height=20
> >=20
> > * lo ka do clani=20
> >    your height=20
> >=20
> > * lo ka lo penbi cu clani=20
> >    a pen being long=20
>
> These are very non-standard, and probably many would call them=20
> incorrect. The only way I can see to make these work is to say that "lo=
=20
> ka mi clani" is to be interpreted as "lo ka mi no'u ce'u clani", or else=
=20
> the "ce'u" would end up in a different sumti place and the meaning would=
=20
> change drastically.=20
>
>
> > * lo ka clani=20
> >    being long (OR being a dimension of length OR being a standard of=20
> length)=20
>
> Right, but much more than with "ke'a", where this is handled much more=20
> loosely, the convention is that "ce'u" fills the first empty slot.=20
>

So if there are no {ce'u}  specified we must understand it as the first and=
=20
only the first slot is filled with omitted {ce'u}. If two or more of the=20
slots of the  nested brivla are filled we must specify all of them (like in=
=20
{mi e do simxu lo ka ce'u ce'u prami}), right?

That would make sense however this is something that must be included into=
=20
CLL 2.0.
IMO {ce'u}-izing gimste is also a must.=20

btw, dont you think that we can use {ce'u} in {mi djica lo ka/nu **ce'u**=
=20
citka lo plise} instead of {vo'a/mi}?



> mu'o mi'e la selpa'i=20
>
> --=20
> pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo=20
>
> do=E1=BB=8B m=C3=A8lbi mlen=C3=AC'u=20
>     .i do c=C3=A0tlu ki'u=20
> ma fe la x=C3=A0mpre =C5=ADu=20
>     .i do t=C3=ACnsa c=C3=A0rmi=20
> gi'e s=C3=ACrji se t=C3=A0rmi=20
>     .i ta=E1=BB=8B bo pu c=C3=ACtka lo gr=C3=A0na ku=20
>
>

--=20
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<br><br>On Tuesday, October 2, 2012 12:15:29 AM UTC+4, selpa'i wrote:<block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-le=
ft: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">Am 01.10.2012 22:04, schrieb Arnt Ri=
chard Johansen:
<br>&gt; On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 12:56:59AM -0700, la gleki wrote:
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; These examples are pretty clear. No ambiguity. Now let's open =
Chapter 11.4
<br>&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://dag.github.com/cll/11/4/" target=3D"_blank">=
http://dag.github.com/cll/11/<wbr>4/</a>
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; 4.9) &nbsp; la djan. cu zmadu la djordj. le ka mi prami ce'u
<br>&gt;&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; John exceeds George in-the propert=
y-of (I love X).
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; This is something very strange.
<br>&gt;&gt; Let's imagine that I'm a boy and I meet a girl. I tell her
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; {do melbi mi lo ka ce'u clani}
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; Does {ce'u} refer to {do} or {mi}?
<br>&gt; Neither. {ce'u} does not refer to anything, and that's sort of the=
 whole point. The clause refers to a =E2=80=9Cproperty=E2=80=9D of being ta=
ll *in the abstract*, not that of someone in particular being tall.
<br>
<br>Yes, but the ce'u place gets filled later by one of the sumti in the=20
<br>parent bridi, and that is what the question was about.
<br>
<br>&gt; * lo ka mi clani
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;my height
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; * lo ka do clani
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;your height
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; * lo ka lo penbi cu clani
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;a pen being long
<br>
<br>These are very non-standard, and probably many would call them=20
<br>incorrect. The only way I can see to make these work is to say that "lo=
=20
<br>ka mi clani" is to be interpreted as "lo ka mi no'u ce'u clani", or els=
e=20
<br>the "ce'u" would end up in a different sumti place and the meaning woul=
d=20
<br>change drastically.
<br>
<br>
<br>&gt; * lo ka clani
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;being long (OR being a dimension of length OR being a=
 standard of length)
<br>
<br>Right, but much more than with "ke'a", where this is handled much more=
=20
<br>loosely, the convention is that "ce'u" fills the first empty slot.
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>So if there are no {ce'u} &nbsp;specif=
ied we must understand it as the first and only the first slot is filled wi=
th omitted {ce'u}. If two or more of the slots of the &nbsp;nested brivla a=
re filled we must specify all of them (like in {mi e do simxu lo ka ce'u ce=
'u prami}), right?</div><div><br></div><div>That would make sense however t=
his is something that must be included into CLL 2.0.</div><div>IMO&nbsp;{ce=
'u}-izing gimste is also a must.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>btw, dont y=
ou think that we can use {ce'u} in {mi djica lo ka/nu *<b>ce'u</b>* citka l=
o plise} instead of {vo'a/mi}?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left:=
 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
<br>
<br>--=20
<br>pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo
<br>
<br>do=E1=BB=8B m=C3=A8lbi mlen=C3=AC'u
<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; .i do c=C3=A0tlu ki'u
<br>ma fe la x=C3=A0mpre =C5=ADu
<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; .i do t=C3=ACnsa c=C3=A0rmi
<br>gi'e s=C3=ACrji se t=C3=A0rmi
<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; .i ta=E1=BB=8B bo pu c=C3=ACtka lo gr=C3=A0na ku
<br>
<br></blockquote>

<p></p>

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