Received: from mail-ob0-f189.google.com ([209.85.214.189]:34362)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncBCK7BH4HXIGRBJNIVSBQKGQEJMRYYTI@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1TJ5CO-0007Ce-D0; Tue, 02 Oct 2012 09:20:08 -0700
Received: by obc16 with SMTP id 16sf6483928obc.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Tue, 02 Oct 2012 09:19:49 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from
         :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=Y5djzyXO/0HE66gHmCMqFWUUlx1CWMySxQjy8/NgrrI=;
        b=T5I5cSFLMbEe130AMQyvPrvmuNx4wsCZLhIr4audlX0cqq5ky2fxNXRzcLRMlbOyUq
         hO7BnAd1/75wGssEKFL5JagOicLqSKE89x8uZAq/1mZ4oz1mZikGVJon/y1JDOarnQCk
         Rs6wq/ji0KkcsT8W99mw3tKfrwq/C1i2FQqHO3/yqxI13mQ7dAhxK3tA1wc1Yp/NpOkD
         MDuoVaNj1VNTQ0BYDD+uDrV1+ih/W1XI36WD4vk5DKm10xCqiN1feK0HK9phodRA6/8s
         IIsb6N4U/N8H4eyL/Uu7qV29WYfs7sqX3Nbo12sqgacTsUA7F/SjvBqqleNjDNGoKX49
         josA==
Received: by 10.52.29.225 with SMTP id n1mr2082264vdh.5.1349194789723;
        Tue, 02 Oct 2012 09:19:49 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.220.107.208 with SMTP id c16ls494528vcp.3.gmail; Tue, 02 Oct
 2012 09:19:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.58.187.168 with SMTP id ft8mr5385871vec.7.1349194789224;
        Tue, 02 Oct 2012 09:19:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.58.187.168 with SMTP id ft8mr5385870vec.7.1349194789212;
        Tue, 02 Oct 2012 09:19:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-vc0-f169.google.com (mail-vc0-f169.google.com [209.85.220.169])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id s13si79003vde.2.2012.10.02.09.19.49
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Tue, 02 Oct 2012 09:19:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of adamlopresto@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.169 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.169;
Received: by vcbfl17 with SMTP id fl17so7075110vcb.28
        for <lojban@googlegroups.com>; Tue, 02 Oct 2012 09:19:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.52.94.108 with SMTP id db12mr8602628vdb.119.1349194789047;
 Tue, 02 Oct 2012 09:19:49 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.220.180.69 with HTTP; Tue, 2 Oct 2012 09:19:28 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <CAOQ8VDUnUJkyh24=y2HOUs3EzHY49JMDL+dQRKUBO2RPy9+rOw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b8c0afc7-f6e0-411e-a220-8802cb006316@googlegroups.com>
 <CAOQ8VDXVyZf_STyTgS1aFhLUMsdxr=kxxVoesuQuXwu69CGa2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <23276b4b-763f-4c74-afbc-a5bebd13387b@googlegroups.com> <CAOQ8VDUnUJkyh24=y2HOUs3EzHY49JMDL+dQRKUBO2RPy9+rOw@mail.gmail.com>
From: Adam Lopresto <adamlopresto@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 11:19:28 -0500
Message-ID: <CABM8VqcY8dJ2A_3T0pqW7vRRSoK3_K9=tmLbRxO7KU+YgQw0bw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] {kau} vs. {ba'e}
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
X-Original-Sender: adamlopresto@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 domain of adamlopresto@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.169 as permitted
 sender) smtp.mail=adamlopresto@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:googlegroups-manage+1004133512417+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf307abcf9224bdc04cb15e48f
X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/)
X-Spam_score: 0.0
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

--20cf307abcf9224bdc04cb15e48f
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 4:04 PM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 1 October 2012 03:05, la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Monday, October 1, 2012 1:32:24 AM UTC+4, tsani wrote:
>>>
>>> Simply because {la djan kau} is arguably never correct, {kau} can never
>>> "replace" {ba'e}. {kau} has a particular use, namely to mark indirect
>>> *questions*. {kau} on anything but a question is weird, at best, and
>>> complete nonsense, at worst.
>>>
>>> {ba'e} on the other hand marks emphasis. Emphasis and indirect questions
>>> are two separate ideas.
>>>
>>> {.i mi djuno lo du'u xukau la djan ba'e broda} "I know whether John
>>> brodas (and not whether he does/is some other selbri)"
>>> {.i mi djuno lo du'u ba'e xu kau la djan ba'e broda} "I know *whether*
>>> John brodas (and not if it pertains to some other indirect question)"
>>>
>>> The thing about {makau} is that it's somewhat referentless, like {da},
>>> and it's best to think about {[question]-kau} constructs as being single
>>> items of the [question]'s selma'o.
>>>
>>> As for "replacing kau with ba'e", I must say that replacing *incorrect*
>>> usage of {kau}, such as {la djan kau}, with {ba'e}, in the form of {ba'e la
>>> djan} is a very excellent solution.
>>>
>>
>> So is it something that needs to be fixed in this chapter of the CLL?
>>
>
> In my very honest opinion, yes.
>

{kau} on a non-question word (in a context where an indirect question would
make sense) has a simple and obvious meaning: it's the *answer* to the
indirect question. It's not just any old form of emphasis. No need to
change anything about the language but your own (mis)understanding.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.


--20cf307abcf9224bdc04cb15e48f
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 4:04 PM, Jacob Errington =
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nictytan@gmail.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">nictytan@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x">

On 1 October 2012 03:05, la gleki <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:g=
leki.is.my.name@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
1ex">



<div><br><br>On Monday, October 1, 2012 1:32:24 AM UTC+4, tsani wrote:<bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Simply because {la djan kau} is arguably=
 never correct, {kau} can never &quot;replace&quot; {ba&#39;e}. {kau} has a=
 particular use, namely to mark indirect *questions*. {kau} on anything but=
 a question is weird, at best, and complete nonsense, at worst.<div>





<br></div><div>{ba&#39;e} on the other hand marks emphasis. Emphasis and in=
direct questions are two separate ideas.=A0</div><div><br></div><div>{.i mi=
 djuno lo du&#39;u xukau la djan ba&#39;e broda} &quot;I know whether John =
brodas (and not whether he does/is some other selbri)&quot;</div>





<div>{.i mi djuno lo du&#39;u ba&#39;e xu kau la djan ba&#39;e broda} &quot=
;I know *whether* John brodas (and not if it pertains to some other indirec=
t question)&quot;</div><div><br></div><div>The thing about {makau} is that =
it&#39;s somewhat referentless, like {da}, and it&#39;s best to think about=
 {[question]-kau} constructs as being single items of the [question]&#39;s =
selma&#39;o.</div>





<div><br></div><div>As for &quot;replacing kau with ba&#39;e&quot;, I must =
say that replacing *incorrect* usage of {kau}, such as {la djan kau}, with =
{ba&#39;e}, in the form of {ba&#39;e la djan} is a very excellent solution.=
</div>



</blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>So is it something that needs to be =
fixed in this chapter of the CLL?=A0</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>=
In my very honest opinion, yes.</div></div></blockquote><div><br>{kau} on a=
 non-question word (in a context where an indirect question=20
would make sense) has a simple and obvious meaning: it&#39;s the <b>answer<=
/b> to
 the indirect question. It&#39;s not just any old form of emphasis. No need=
 to change anything about the language but your own (mis)understanding.<br>=
</div></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.<br />

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.<br />



--20cf307abcf9224bdc04cb15e48f--