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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2012 08:02:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] What place of nesting bridi {ce'u} refers to?
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On Thursday, October 4, 2012 4:36:54 PM UTC+4, selpa'i wrote:
>
>  Am 04.10.2012 09:34, schrieb la gleki:
> =20
>
> =20
>>  I'm not sure what you mean by=20
>> =20
>>  I don't like how gua\spi works here cuz as i can see it demands using=
=20
>> another gismu every time you change the value of {ce'u}.
>>
>>
>>  Can you show me what you mean?
>>
>
>  Although it's not the right place to discuss it here please translate to=
=20
> gua\spi
>
>
> So I have to translate this for you, but you don't like how it works? I'm=
=20
> not sure you can properly judge it then.
>


I have a general idea how it should be translated into gua\spi.
The problem of translation might be of a philosophical kind.



>
>  1."I want to eat an apple".
>
>
> The normal way uses an infinitive compound:
>
> ^:i \ji /daw crw \xo plyw
>
> But you can also use an explicit infinitive:
>
> ^:i \ji /daw \vo crw \xo plyw
>
>  2."I want you to eat an apple".
>
>
> ^:i \ji /gu pli \ju ^vo crw \xo plyw
>
> or
>
> ^:i \ji ^ju /gu pli \crw \xo plyw
>

But I have a clear feeling that in both sentences the same semantic prime=
=20
can be used. And this prime describes "desire".
Lojban can replace {ce'u} with anything. Natlangs can do the same. gua\spi=
=20
can't. {to zoi gy. I don't want to criticize gua\spi anymore. gy. toi}


>
> =20
>  btw, what is your opinion about {ka=3Dsu'u ce'u}?
>
>
> I'm not sure how to answer that question. You can say that ka is du'u=20
> ce'u, I don't know what the advantage is in defining ka in terms of su'u,=
=20
> because to me su'u could then mean nu or ni, which means that ka could=20
> become nu ce'u or ni ce'u. So why not use a more precise abstractor? Also=
,=20
> what is the point anyway? ka has at least one ce'u in it, that's pretty=
=20
> clear to almost everyone. Why do you need to use su'u here?=20
>

Well, I used su'u because wasn't sure about {du'u}. And {* lo ka lo penbi=
=20
cu clani } had bewildered me.
I just wanna know whether it would be correct to add the definition of=20
{ka=3Ddu'u ce'u} into jvs or not.



> mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
> =20
> --=20
> pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo
>
> do=E1=BB=8B m=C3=A8lbi mlen=C3=AC'u
>    .i do c=C3=A0tlu ki'u
> ma fe la x=C3=A0mpre =C5=ADu
>    .i do t=C3=ACnsa c=C3=A0rmi
> gi'e s=C3=ACrji se t=C3=A0rmi
>    .i ta=E1=BB=8B bo pu c=C3=ACtka lo gr=C3=A0na ku
>
>=20

--=20
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<br><br>On Thursday, October 4, 2012 4:36:54 PM UTC+4, selpa'i wrote:<block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-le=
ft: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
    <div><tt>Am 04.10.2012 09:34, schrieb la
        gleki:</tt><tt><br>
      </tt></div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite"><tt><br>
      </tt>
      <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
        <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000"><tt><br>
          </tt> <tt>I'm not sure what you mean by </tt><tt><br>
          </tt> <tt><br>
          </tt>
          <blockquote type=3D"cite"><tt>I don't like how gua\spi works
              here cuz as i can see it demands using another gismu every
              time you change the value of {ce'u}.</tt></blockquote>
          <tt><br>
          </tt> <tt>Can you show me what you mean?</tt></div>
      </blockquote>
      <div><tt><br>
        </tt></div>
      <div><tt>Although it's not the right place to discuss it here
          please translate to gua\spi</tt></div>
    </blockquote>
    <tt><br>
    </tt><tt>So I have to translate this for you, but you don't like how
      it works? I'm not sure you can properly judge it then.</tt></div></bl=
ockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I have a general idea how it sh=
ould be translated into gua\spi.</div><div>The problem of translation might=
 be of a philosophical kind.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000"=
><tt><br>
    </tt><tt><br>
    </tt>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div><tt>1."I want to eat an apple".</tt></div>
    </blockquote>
    <tt><br>
    </tt><tt>The normal way uses an infinitive compound:<br>
      <br>
      ^:i </tt><tt>\ji /daw crw \xo plyw<br>
      <br>
    </tt><tt>But you can also use an explicit infinitive:<br>
      <br>
      ^:i \ji /daw \vo crw \xo plyw<br>
      <br>
    </tt>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div><tt>2."I want you to eat an apple".</tt></div>
    </blockquote>
    <tt><br>
    </tt><tt>^:i \ji /gu pli \ju ^vo crw \xo plyw<br>
      <br>
      or<br>
      <br>
      ^:i \ji ^ju /gu pli \crw \xo plyw<br></tt></div></blockquote><div><br=
></div><div>But I have a clear feeling that in both sentences the same sema=
ntic prime can be used. And this prime describes "desire".</div><div>Lojban=
 can replace {ce'u} with anything. Natlangs can do the same. gua\spi can't.=
 {to zoi gy. I don't want to criticize gua\spi anymore. gy. toi}</div><div>=
<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left:=
 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFF=
FFF" text=3D"#000000"><tt>
    </tt><tt><br>
    </tt><tt><br>
    </tt>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div><tt><br>
        </tt></div>
      <div><tt>btw, what is your opinion about {ka=3Dsu'u ce'u}?</tt></div>
    </blockquote>
    <tt><br>
    </tt><tt>I'm not sure how to answer that question. You can say that
      ka is du'u ce'u, I don't know what the advantage is in defining ka
      in terms of su'u, because to me su'u could then mean nu or ni,
      which means that ka could become nu ce'u or ni ce'u. So why not
      use a more precise abstractor? Also, what is the point anyway? ka
      has at least one ce'u in it, that's pretty clear to almost
      everyone. Why do you need to use su'u here? <br></tt></div></blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div>Well, I used su'u because wasn't sure about {du'u}. =
And {* lo ka lo penbi cu clani&nbsp;} had bewildered me.</div><div>I just w=
anna know whether it would be correct to add the definition of {ka=3Ddu'u c=
e'u} into jvs or not.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000"><tt>
      <br>
      mu'o mi'e la selpa'i</tt><tt><br>
    </tt>
    <pre cols=3D"72">--=20
pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo

do=E1=BB=8B m=C3=A8lbi mlen=C3=AC'u
   .i do c=C3=A0tlu ki'u
ma fe la x=C3=A0mpre =C5=ADu
   .i do t=C3=ACnsa c=C3=A0rmi
gi'e s=C3=ACrji se t=C3=A0rmi
   .i ta=E1=BB=8B bo pu c=C3=ACtka lo gr=C3=A0na ku</pre>
  </div>

</blockquote>

<p></p>

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