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Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2012 21:47:11 +0200
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Subject: Re: [lojban] What place of nesting bridi {ce'u} refers to?
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Am 04.10.2012 17:02, schrieb la gleki:>
 >
 >>     1."I want to eat an apple".
 >>
 >>     The normal way uses an infinitive compound:
 >>
 >>     ^:i \ji /daw crw \xo plyw
 >>
 >>     But you can also use an explicit infinitive:
 >>
 >>     ^:i \ji /daw \vo crw \xo plyw
 >>
 >>     2."I want you to eat an apple".
 >>
 >>     ^:i \ji /gu pli \ju ^vo crw \xo plyw
 >>
 >>     or
 >>
 >>     ^:i \ji ^ju /gu pli \crw \xo plyw
 >>
 >
 > But I have a clear feeling that in both sentences the same semantic
 > prime can be used. And this prime describes "desire".
 > Lojban can replace {ce'u} with anything. Natlangs can do the same.
 > gua\spi can't. {to zoi gy. I don't want to criticize gua\spi anymore.
 > gy. toi}

You cannot replace ce'u at all or else it's gone and it's not a
ka-abstraction anymore (or not a well-formed one). What natlangs can and=20
can't do has little relevance when discussing Lojbanic topics such as=20
ka-abstractions.

In Lojban, djica2 is a nu, not a ka. You could say that djica should be
polymorphic and allow both nu and ka, but I don't think that's what
you're saying, is it? (I don't know *what* you are saying).
Why is it a nu? Because you can djica things that don't involve
yourself. (Gua\spi's _daw_ is restricted to desiring to do or be
something, hence it's always like a Lojban ka. And that's why the second=20
example uses a different predicate.)

Again, what is the difference between the Lojban and the gua\spi sentence?

 >
 >>
 >>     btw, what is your opinion about {ka=3Dsu'u ce'u}?
 >>
 >>     I'm not sure how to answer that question. You can say that ka is
 >>     du'u ce'u, I don't know what the advantage is in defining ka in
 >>     terms of su'u, because to me su'u could then mean nu or ni, which
 >>     means that ka could become nu ce'u or ni ce'u. So why not use a mor=
e
 >>     precise abstractor? Also, what is the point anyway? ka has at least
 >>     one ce'u in it, that's pretty clear to almost everyone. Why do you
 >>     need to use su'u here?
 >
 >
 > Well, I used su'u because wasn't sure about {du'u}. And {* lo ka lo
 > penbi cu clani } had bewildered me.
 > I just wanna know whether it would be correct to add the definition of
 > {ka=3Ddu'u ce'u} into jvs or not.

That seems pointless and it's not a real definition either. You can't=20
blindly replace "ka" with "du'u ce'u". It has been said many times that=20
"a ka-abstraction is a du'u-abstraction that contains at least one=20
ce'u". This is one view you can have, I don't know if everybody would=20
agree with it. We don't just add definitions for the cmavo, that's the=20
job of the - currently idle - BPFK.
Sorry, I don't understand your motivation here. Try to be a bit more=20
clear, please.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
--=20
pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo

do=E1=BB=8B m=C3=A8lbi mlen=C3=AC'u
    .i do c=C3=A0tlu ki'u
ma fe la x=C3=A0mpre =C5=ADu
    .i do t=C3=ACnsa c=C3=A0rmi
gi'e s=C3=ACrji se t=C3=A0rmi
    .i ta=E1=BB=8B bo pu c=C3=ACtka lo gr=C3=A0na ku

--=20
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