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Subject: Re: [lojban] What place of nesting bridi {ce'u} refers to?
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Am 05.10.2012 16:41, schrieb la gleki:
>
>
> On Thursday, October 4, 2012 11:47:16 PM UTC+4, selpa'i wrote:
>
>     Am 04.10.2012 17:02, schrieb la gleki:>
>       >
>       >>     1."I want to eat an apple".
>       >>
>       >>     The normal way uses an infinitive compound:
>       >>
>       >>     ^:i \ji /daw crw \xo plyw
>       >>
>       >>     But you can also use an explicit infinitive:
>       >>
>       >>     ^:i \ji /daw \vo crw \xo plyw
>       >>
>       >>     2."I want you to eat an apple".
>       >>
>       >>     ^:i \ji /gu pli \ju ^vo crw \xo plyw
>       >>
>       >>     or
>       >>
>       >>     ^:i \ji ^ju /gu pli \crw \xo plyw
>       >>
>       >
>       > But I have a clear feeling that in both sentences the same semant=
ic
>       > prime can be used. And this prime describes "desire".
>       > Lojban can replace {ce'u} with anything. Natlangs can do the same=
.
>       > gua\spi can't. {to zoi gy. I don't want to criticize gua\spi
>     anymore.
>       > gy. toi}
>
>     You cannot replace ce'u at all or else it's gone and it's not a
>     ka-abstraction anymore (or not a well-formed one).
>
>
> True. Still the same brivla can be used. Unlike gua\spi.


No, it can not. If you "ce'u-ize" the gimste, for instance by saying=20
that djica2 ba a ka (which is a bad example, but it illustrates the=20
point), then you will not be able to use it for "I want you to broda",=20
because that's a different predicate that doesn't involve yourself in=20
the abstraction. This is a *strenght* of gua\spi; its predicates are=20
semantically much clearer.


>
>     What natlangs can and
>     can't do has little relevance when discussing Lojbanic topics such as
>     ka-abstractions.
>
>
> Then gua\spi has little relevance too.

What? Gua\spi is not a natlang, and you brought up Gua\spi in the first=20
place. Gua\spi's entire gimste is ce'u-ized, that's what it looks like.

>
>
>
>     In Lojban, djica2 is a nu, not a ka. You could say that djica should =
be
>     polymorphic and allow both nu and ka, but I don't think that's what
>     you're saying, is it? (I don't know *what* you are saying).
>
>
> My only complaint  that we have a nice shortcut of saying {du'u ce'u}
> but we don't have one for {nu ce'u}.

But ka is not a shortcut for du'u ce'u... ka is what you get if you have=20
a du'u abstraction and add a ce'u to it.

>
>     Why is it a nu? Because you can djica things that don't involve
>     yourself. (Gua\spi's _daw_ is restricted to desiring to do or be
>     something, hence it's always like a Lojban ka. And that's why the
>     second
>     example uses a different predicate.)
>
>     Again, what is the difference between the Lojban and the gua\spi
>     sentence?
>
>
> Hopefully no semantic difference. Looks like Lojban just gives more
> freedom in recombining the same words without drawing in extra predicates=
.

Okay, but that wasn't even your original point. And as I tried to=20
explain above, you get seperate predicates if you ce'u-ize the gimste.=20
One will be

x1 wants to be/do x2 (ka)

the other will be

x1 wants/wishes/desires that x2 (nu) happen

Is that what you want or not?

>
>
> Let's stop arguing and let's ce'u-ize gimste :).
>
> How the new ce'u-ized definitions of gismu should look like in ur opinion=
?

Just look at gua\spi's gimste. It did everything right in that regard,=20
but you have to remember that gua\spi is not Lojban, and not everything=20
can be copied 1:1.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

--=20
pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo

do=E1=BB=8B m=C3=A8lbi mlen=C3=AC'u
    .i do c=C3=A0tlu ki'u
ma fe la x=C3=A0mpre =C5=ADu
    .i do t=C3=ACnsa c=C3=A0rmi
gi'e s=C3=ACrji se t=C3=A0rmi
    .i ta=E1=BB=8B bo pu c=C3=ACtka lo gr=C3=A0na ku

--=20
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