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To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] "He didn't start to paint until he was thirty"
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Am 17.10.2012 11:06, schrieb Escape Landsome:
> Today I scrutinize the following sentence in Japanese :
>
> =E5=BD=BC=E3=81=AF=EF=BC=93=EF=BC=90=E6=AD=B3=E3=81=AB=E3=81=AA=E3=81=A3=
=E3=81=A6=E3=81=8B=E3=82=89=E7=B5=B5=E3=82=92=E3=81=8B=E3=81=8D=E5=A7=8B=E3=
=82=81=E3=81=9F=E3=80=82
> He didn't start to paint until he was thirty.
>
> Strictly speaking, the translation ought to be : "He BEGAN painting at 30=
".
>
> But they say in english : "He DIDN'T START... UNTIL".
>
> Now, I find this a little confusing.   Not starting to do something
> has nothing to do with beginning, even "UNTIL".
>
> How do Lojban handle this kind of thing ?

You can do both in Lojban:

    co'a pirfi'i ca lo nu nanca li cino
    He began painting when he was thirty.

(which is the same as:)

    pirfi'i co'a lo nu nanca li cino


The other one needs to be treated with some care, or you'll get the=20
wrong negation-scope:

    co'u lo nu nanca li cino cu na pirfi'i
    Until he was thirty, he didn't paint.
    Him not painting ended when he was thirty.

Or if you want an afterthought co'u:

    na pirfi'i .i co'u bo nanca li cino
    He didn't paint, until he was thirty.


Placing na in front of the co'u wouldn't work:

    na pirfi'i co'u tu'a li cino
    It is not the case that he stopped painting at thirty.

So you have to either place co'u in the front, or split the sentences.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

--=20
pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo

do=E1=BB=8B m=C3=A8lbi mlen=C3=AC'u
    .i do c=C3=A0tlu ki'u
ma fe la x=C3=A0mpre =C5=ADu
    .i do t=C3=ACnsa c=C3=A0rmi
gi'e s=C3=ACrji se t=C3=A0rmi
    .i ta=E1=BB=8B bo pu c=C3=ACtka lo gr=C3=A0na ku


.

--=20
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