Received: from mail-ia0-f189.google.com ([209.85.210.189]:47246) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TRBBc-0004mm-Vd; Wed, 24 Oct 2012 17:20:48 -0700 Received: by mail-ia0-f189.google.com with SMTP id h11sf755183iae.16 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2012 17:20:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=i4fBiFau4HGe+aitMvxWYTzISe+JLsTzLnq3U/eLbZo=; b=xfTrJTnroZ+PlB9T6rbmKREtF/Dyds+rkUT1tL/wGuiQ8Gety0Z/SZxoSv/lozOTRS +k0l6NzE3otfUKegUlEfymkOxOUTRLCgHjCFI2XMy4X6AGLeFTjBLMEV0OhTUYbxZO+5 N4trt7d89uglnSA3zlH6i/Nojk8FiGSZG4I5SvXXPEQ9vUqY2asTIPuSIw2Oa+VMZH6b cfYf7MTuKir3LP9DxjT+j9fgigEdkqQS3QMCtGiU7HI8mgscihIvJhkZ+qoXJh8N9FJk i3HZNumeIFyd5g6Iq/76QqMT93p4qRYDE12tTiQVbbcKLVLNfqTvZFLJbm5F+ZZWdO3r l89Q== Received: by 10.52.66.235 with SMTP id i11mr3324430vdt.7.1351124430254; Wed, 24 Oct 2012 17:20:30 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.52.35.20 with SMTP id d20ls2830563vdj.7.gmail; Wed, 24 Oct 2012 17:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.58.125.106 with SMTP id mp10mr7063062veb.33.1351124429753; Wed, 24 Oct 2012 17:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.58.125.106 with SMTP id mp10mr7063061veb.33.1351124429728; Wed, 24 Oct 2012 17:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vb0-f54.google.com (mail-vb0-f54.google.com [209.85.212.54]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q19si4379582vds.3.2012.10.24.17.20.29 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 24 Oct 2012 17:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.54 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.54; Received: by mail-vb0-f54.google.com with SMTP id v11so1276704vbm.41 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2012 17:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.58.95.65 with SMTP id di1mr32043247veb.55.1351124429628; Wed, 24 Oct 2012 17:20:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.89.84 with HTTP; Wed, 24 Oct 2012 17:20:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Jacob Errington Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 17:20:09 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] The fire's hotness To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: nictytan@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.54 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=nictytan@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f503b72ace56104ccd72ba0 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / --e89a8f503b72ace56104ccd72ba0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Although I don't fully follow what it is you're trying to get at here, it's generally agreed upon that using ka that way is no good. In general use, ka is used only for "pure functions" -- properties and not qualitites, which is how the CLL describes ka. That being said, I'd just use {nu}, which I believe represents an particular instance of a predication, which is just a property with the ce'u-places filled in: {lo nu lo fagri cu glare cu pluka mi} or perhaps, {lo nu seli'i lo fagri cu glare cu pluka mi} We can say it more poetically with {.i mi selpu'a co seli'i fagri glare} .i mi'e la tsani mu'o On 24 October 2012 14:01, Mike S. wrote: > Given: > > .i lo se mupli be lo vi fagri be'o je ka glare cu pluka mi > > "The instantiated-by-this-fire property-of-being-hot is pleasant to me." > = "This fire's hotness is pleasant to me." > > I am trying to encode what are sometimes called "tropes", properties as > they are instantiated in particular cases. Does the Lojban capture that > the way I think it does? > > Is there any way to shorten this expression without losing the logical > form? > > -- > co ma'a mke > > Xorban blog: Xorban.wordpress.com > My LL blog: Loglang.wordpress.com > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --e89a8f503b72ace56104ccd72ba0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Although I don't fully follow what it is you're trying to get at he= re, it's generally agreed upon that using ka that way is no good. In ge= neral use, ka is used only for "pure functions" -- properties and= not qualitites, which is how the CLL describes ka.

That being said, I'd just use {nu}, which I believe repr= esents an particular instance of a predication, which is just a property wi= th the ce'u-places filled in:

{lo nu lo fagri = cu glare cu pluka mi}
or perhaps,
{lo nu seli'i lo fagri cu glare cu pluka mi}=

We can say it more poetically with
{.i = mi selpu'a co seli'i fagri glare}

.i mi= 9;e la tsani mu'o

On 24 October 2012 14:01, Mike S. <maikxlx= @gmail.com> wrote:
Given:

.i lo se mupli be lo vi fagri be'o je ka gl= are cu pluka mi

"The instantiated-by-this-fire property-of-bein= g-hot is pleasant to me."
=3D "This fire's hotness is plea= sant to me."

I am trying to encode what are sometimes called "tropes", pro= perties as they are instantiated in particular cases.=A0 Does the Lojban ca= pture that the way I think it does?

Is there any way to shorten this= expression without losing the logical form?

--
co ma'a mke

Xorban blog: Xorban.wordpress.com
My LL blog: Loglang.wordpress.c= om

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