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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 19:20:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] The fire's hotness
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Going back to the original case, the English is ambiguous (of course -- tha=
t's why we have Lojban -- when it helps) in that it is not clear just what =
pleases me: that the fire is hot (lo nu lo fagri cu glare) or the heat of t=
he fire -- the actual radiation (which I am not at all sure how to say, may=
be lo ka lo fagri cu glare[CLL 259 4.4 -6 before you start saying I can't d=
o that] but probably not) or the intensity of the heat=A0 (lo ni lo fagri c=
u glare) or remotely different the sensation I have from the fire being hot=
 (lo li'i lo fagri cu glare).=A0 Maybe just lo glare pe lo fagri -- the hot=
 thing that pertains tothe fire.
If kareliably meant property, rather than (now usually, apparently)=A0 prop=
ositional function, lo ka lo fagri cu glaremight do nicely for a trope.=A0 =
Otherwise, we may have to go into haeceity -- not a place I much want to go=
.



________________________________
 From: Mike S. <maikxlx@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2012 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] The fire's hotness
=20



On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 8:20 PM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com> wrote=
:

Although I don't fully follow what it is you're trying to get at here, it's=
 generally agreed upon that using ka that way is no good. In general use, k=
a is used only for "pure functions" -- properties and not qualitites, which=
 is how the CLL describes ka.

Okay.
=A0


That being said, I'd just use {nu}, which I believe represents an particula=
r instance of a predication, which is just a property with the ce'u-places =
filled in:
>
>
>{lo nu lo fagri cu glare cu pluka mi}
>or perhaps,
>{lo nu seli'i lo fagri cu glare cu pluka mi}

The second one is interesting.=A0 Instead of "nu seli'i", why not just "li'=
i"?=A0 Is "nu" rquired by pluka?=A0=20
=A0
--=20
co ma'a mke

Xorban blog: Xorban.wordpress.com
My LL blog: Loglang.wordpress.com=20

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--=20
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---6906265-553972729-1351218059=:10259
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">Going back to the ori=
ginal case, the English is ambiguous (of course -- that's why we have Lojba=
n -- when it helps) in that it is not clear just what pleases me: that the =
fire is hot (<span style=3D"font-style: italic;">lo nu lo fagri cu glare</s=
pan>) or the heat of the fire -- the actual radiation (which I am not at al=
l sure how to say, maybe <span style=3D"font-style: italic;">lo ka lo fagri=
 cu glare</span><span> [CLL 259 4.4 -6 before you start saying I can't do t=
hat]</span> but probably not) or the intensity of the heat&nbsp; (<span sty=
le=3D"font-style: italic;">lo ni lo fagri cu glare)</span> or remotely diff=
erent the sensation I have from the fire being hot (<span style=3D"font-sty=
le: italic;">lo li'i lo fagri cu glare</span><span>)</span>.&nbsp; Maybe ju=
st <span style=3D"font-style: italic;">lo glare pe lo fagri -- </span><span=
>the
 hot thing that pertains to the fire</span>.<br>If <span style=3D"font-styl=
e: italic;">ka</span><span> reliably meant property, rather than (now usual=
ly, apparently)&nbsp; </span>propositional function, <span style=3D"font-st=
yle: italic;">lo ka lo fagri cu glare</span><span> might do nicely for a tr=
ope</span>.&nbsp; Otherwise, we may have to go into haeceity -- not a place=
 I much want to go.<br><div><br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family: times ne=
w roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-fami=
ly: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D=
"ltr"> <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <hr size=3D"1">  <b><span style=3D"=
font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Mike S. &lt;maikxlx@gmail.com&gt;<br> <=
b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> lojban@googlegroups.com=
 <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, Oct=
ober 24, 2012 8:22 PM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</s=
pan></b> Re:
 [lojban] The fire's hotness<br> </font> </div> <br>
<div id=3D"yiv388517530"><br><div class=3D"yiv388517530gmail_quote">On Wed,=
 Oct 24, 2012 at 8:20 PM, Jacob Errington <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a rel=3D"n=
ofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:nictytan@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"ma=
ilto:nictytan@gmail.com">nictytan@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><block=
quote class=3D"yiv388517530gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
Although I don't fully follow what it is you're trying to get at here, it's=
 generally agreed upon that using ka that way is no good. In general use, k=
a is used only for "pure functions" -- properties and not qualitites, which=
 is how the CLL describes ka.</blockquote>
<div><br>Okay.<br>&nbsp;<br><br></div><blockquote class=3D"yiv388517530gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex;"><div>

</div><div>That being said, I'd just use {nu}, which I believe represents a=
n particular instance of a predication, which is just a property with the c=
e'u-places filled in:</div><div><br></div><div>{lo nu lo fagri cu glare cu =
pluka mi}</div>


<div>or perhaps,</div><div>{lo nu seli'i lo fagri cu glare cu pluka mi}</di=
v></blockquote><div><br>The second one is interesting.&nbsp; Instead of "nu=
 seli'i", why not just "li'i"?&nbsp; Is "nu" rquired by pluka?&nbsp; <br>
&nbsp;<br></div></div>-- <br>co ma'a mke<br><br>Xorban blog: <a rel=3D"nofo=
llow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://xorban.wordpress.com/">Xorban.wordpr=
ess.com</a><br>My LL blog: <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"ht=
tp://loglang.wordpress.com/">Loglang.wordpress.com</a> <br>
<br>



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</div><br><br> </div> </div>  </div></body></html>

<p></p>

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