Received: from mail-oa0-f61.google.com ([209.85.219.61]:50672) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TW9Dj-00006l-G4; Wed, 07 Nov 2012 09:15:28 -0800 Received: by mail-oa0-f61.google.com with SMTP id o6sf1494083oag.16 for ; Wed, 07 Nov 2012 09:15:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=lviHRFvOaSp8gj1gHz6gmNjzaW5pGFvFGVNlxJo1MHo=; b=iSOq6JFOPFTn9axxFpfqu6C2yYgvo2eG2VRQVxkTUgdWY0SbGAqaPFeKqFWU//PnV/ xcZZEIK2w+rCzb1e2Oje67QBlLoy7kR+Qo7HipPRlslvhP2CaQQ23X3g04kBT6cSlU75 X0Ee/sg1FzH+JktnOZDfxOUExByX/JanCIzH/7xZn5Mz06HF95vHsmKnFMZ+/3sWdfii jrtNIhSqNmYBBfyOC3OYxIZlR5ziTS221g1r622cezy0yT3EK+AZDddavfm6z230mtqX LgvMFWAWF4tL1wHmsmIMYCgYDLevHccuu1sghgdjyKSYcp1Ms/ynwRbHDYoDYCRHEsoD K3sg== Received: by 10.52.91.109 with SMTP id cd13mr1178021vdb.15.1352308512704; Wed, 07 Nov 2012 09:15:12 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.52.67.52 with SMTP id k20ls2181164vdt.1.gmail; Wed, 07 Nov 2012 09:15:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.28.176 with SMTP id c16mr1178882vdh.5.1352308512228; Wed, 07 Nov 2012 09:15:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 09:15:11 -0800 (PST) From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <509A91CE.3030707@gmx.de> References: <50991340.9030209@gmx.de> <509A7304.1010905@gmx.de> <509A91CE.3030707@gmx.de> Subject: Re: [lojban] {zo'i} vs. {fa'a} MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_613_12278761.1352308511810" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_613_12278761.1352308511810 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wednesday, November 7, 2012 8:52:31 PM UTC+4, selpa'i wrote: > > Am 07.11.2012 15:57, schrieb la gleki:=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > On Wednesday, November 7, 2012 6:41:11 PM UTC+4, selpa'i wrote:=20 > >=20 > > Upon further reflection, I have concluded that only the event=20 > > interpretation makes sense, so=20 > >=20 > > mi zutse zo'i lo rirxe=20 > >=20 > > would expand to=20 > >=20 > > lo nu mi zutse cu tolragve lo rirxe [lo manri]=20 > >=20 > > "I'm sitting on this/the same side of the river."=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Which tags refer to an arguments and which refer to the bridi?=20 > > Is there a table of tags classified by this distinction?=20 > > As far as I am aware, no such table exists. In my personal opinion, any= =20 > tags whose root place structure allow an event place somewhere should=20 > redistribute the event of the bridi into that place. For tags where an=20 > event place doesn't exist, the solution is less straightforward, but I=20 > think that in many cases, it can be systemized by use of thematic roles= =20 > (e.g. agent, patient, etc).=20 > I don't think such a formalization has been done yet, but I would very=20 > much like to work on it, because as of right now, many tags have very=20 > blurry semantics.=20 > > mi sanga bau lo lojbo=20 > > What does bau semantically attach to? Leaving that up to context is not= =20 > satisfactory, so there must be an unambiguous machanism to determine the= =20 > relationship of a tag to the bridi or its sumti.=20 > Does bau attach to the event of the bridi? Does it attach to mi? To=20 > sanga2?=20 > My preferred solution for this particular example has been to say that=20 > bangu3 takes the event of the bridi thus:=20 > > lo lojbo cu bangu fi lo nu mi sanga=20 > > Which means that bangu3 needs to be changed to something like "... [to=20 > communicate] in situation x3". (Not a big deal because I have never seen= =20 > bangu3 used)=20 > > Under the light of this idea, many gismu need slight alterations (most=20 > of which probably would not break usage). The reward is a robust=20 > semantical system.=20 > > There are edge cases where both interpretations could be argued for, a=20 > good example is {se rai}. As far as I can tell, it has always been used= =20 > to refer to a sumti, usually the place that would be assigned the=20 > "agent" theta role:=20 > > mi bajra se rai lo ka sutra=20 > I run as fast as possible.=20 > > I think this has questionable semantics, because none of the=20 > interactions have been formalized. It could also be taken to mean:=20 > > lo nu mi bajra cu traji lo ka sutra=20 > > Which has a type error, since an event is not a sutra1.=20 > > Such examples exist all over the place, I think it's clear why something= =20 > has to be done about it, especially if one of Lojban's Goals is to=20 > communicate with computers one day.=20 > > If anybody else is interested in discussing this - in my opinion - very= =20 > important topic, I'd be glad to exchange some ideas.=20 > I always intuitively hated sumtcita and {fi'o}. And the only thing that=20 want is to have a clear explanation and solution. How many gismu have to be affected? (of course i can mark all of them=20 myself if I had a better understanding how to search for them) If you can please write a short article to the wiki (to BPFK section or=20 whatever). > mu'o mi'e la selpa'i=20 > --=20 > pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo=20 > > do=E1=BB=8B m=C3=A8lbi mlen=C3=AC'u=20 > .i do c=C3=A0tlu ki'u=20 > ma fe la x=C3=A0mpre =C5=ADu=20 > .i do t=C3=ACnsa c=C3=A0rmi=20 > gi'e s=C3=ACrji se t=C3=A0rmi=20 > .i ta=E1=BB=8B bo pu c=C3=ACtka lo gr=C3=A0na ku=20 > =20 > .=20 > > > .=20 > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lo= jban/-/y8u32pWYlLsJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. ------=_Part_613_12278761.1352308511810 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Wednesday, November 7, 2012 8:52:31 PM UTC+4, selpa'i wrote:Am 07.11.2012 15:57, schrieb la gl= eki:
>
>
> On Wednesday, November 7, 2012 6:41:11 PM UTC+4, selpa'i wrote:
>
>     Upon further reflection, I have concluded that only = the event
>     interpretation makes sense, so
>
>     mi zutse zo'i lo rirxe
>
>     would expand to
>
>     lo nu mi zutse cu tolragve lo rirxe [lo manri]
>
>     "I'm sitting on this/the same side of the river."
>
>
> Which tags refer to an arguments and which refer to the bridi?
> Is there a table of tags classified by this distinction?

As far as I am aware, no such table exists. In my personal opinion, any= =20
tags whose root place structure allow an event place somewhere should= =20
redistribute the event of the bridi into that place. For tags where an= =20
event place doesn't exist, the solution is less straightforward, but I= =20
think that in many cases, it can be systemized by use of thematic roles= =20
(e.g. agent, patient, etc).
I don't think such a formalization has been done yet, but I would very= =20
much like to work on it, because as of right now, many tags have very= =20
blurry semantics.

mi sanga bau lo lojbo

What does bau semantically attach to? Leaving that up to context is not= =20
satisfactory, so there must be an unambiguous machanism to determine th= e=20
relationship of a tag to the bridi or its sumti.
Does bau attach to the event of the bridi? Does it attach to mi? To san= ga2?
My preferred solution for this particular example has been to say that= =20
bangu3 takes the event of the bridi thus:

lo lojbo cu bangu fi lo nu mi sanga

Which means that bangu3 needs to be changed to something like "... [to= =20
communicate] in situation x3". (Not a big deal because I have never see= n=20
bangu3 used)

Under the light of this idea, many gismu need slight alterations (most= =20
of which probably would not break usage). The reward is a robust=20
semantical system.

There are edge cases where both interpretations could be argued for, a= =20
good example is {se rai}. As far as I can tell, it has always been used= =20
to refer to a sumti, usually the place that would be assigned the=20
"agent" theta role:

mi bajra se rai lo ka sutra
I run as fast as possible.

I think this has questionable semantics, because none of the=20
interactions have been formalized. It could also be taken to mean:

lo nu mi bajra cu traji lo ka sutra

Which has a type error, since an event is not a sutra1.

Such examples exist all over the place, I think it's clear why somethin= g=20
has to be done about it, especially if one of Lojban's Goals is to=20
communicate with computers one day.

If anybody else is interested in discussing this - in my opinion - very= =20
important topic, I'd be glad to exchange some ideas.

I always intuitively hated sumtcita an= d {fi'o}. And the only thing that want is to have a clear explanation and s= olution.
How many gismu have to be affected? (of course i can mar= k all of them myself if I had a better understanding how to search for them= )

If you can please write a short article to the w= iki (to BPFK section or whatever).


mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
--=20
pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo

do=E1=BB=8B m=C3=A8lbi mlen=C3=AC'u
    .i do c=C3=A0tlu ki'u
ma fe la x=C3=A0mpre =C5=ADu
    .i do t=C3=ACnsa c=C3=A0rmi
gi'e s=C3=ACrji se t=C3=A0rmi
    .i ta=E1=BB=8B bo pu c=C3=ACtka lo gr=C3=A0na ku
  
.


.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/y8= u32pWYlLsJ.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
------=_Part_613_12278761.1352308511810--