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From: la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Translating "as"
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On Sunday, November 11, 2012 4:29:00 AM UTC+4, selpa'i wrote:
>
> Am 11.11.2012 01:19, schrieb Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas:=20
> > For the general case, I think you need, as you already proposed, a=20
> > selbri that means something like "x1 qua x2 is/does x3".=20
> >=20
> > Making x3 the main bridi with "qua" as a tag has the same sort of=20
> > problems that "zmadu" has, since you want to distinguish:=20
> >=20
> > I give you this as your friend.=20
> > I give you this as a present.=20
> > I give you this as my friend.=20
> >=20
> > where in each case the "as"-term is linked to a different argument. So=
=20
> > it seems to me the best thing is either use a selbri meaning "qua" in=
=20
> > the main bridi, or make a lujvo (like the -mau lujvo) that already=20
> > selects which argument is being qualified.=20
>
> I think you can attach the "qua" tag with a {be} or {pe} to attach it to=
=20
> one of the arguments. The problem right now is just that no such selbri=
=20
> exists, and I don't know what to do about that. It's somewhat urgent=20
> that this word be made, but at the same time, making new gismu is not=20
> easily accepted.=20
>
=20

Some time ago i promised to help every time this problem arises.=20
Even if I'm given the task to create a gismu at the light of speed I doubt=
=20
that the source languages
have the necessary word for this.

*The word "as"*
In English and Russian these are basically prepositions
English "as" [az]/[ez]
Russian "kak"
In Hindi phrase "treat me as your friend" the preposition is translated as=
=20
"k=C4=93 r=C5=ABpa m=C4=93=E1=B9=81" [kerupmem]

Wiktionary treats this meaning as "in the manner or role specified"
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/as

from which we can assume that it's basically
Spanish "como" [komo]
Portuguese "como" [komo]
Italian "come" [kome]


*What if we search for "role/part"?*

My Mandarin dictionary says that it should be=20
"=E8=A7=92 - ju=C3=A9" that means "role; part; character"
"=E8=A7=92=E8=89=B2 - ju=C3=A9s=C3=A8" that means "role"
"play the role of" - "=E6=8B=85=E4=BB=BB...=E8=A7=92=E8=89=B2"

Another option is to search for "qua".
"=E4=BD=9C=E4=B8=BA (=E4=BD=9C=E7=82=BA, =E4=BD=9C=E4=B8=BA) zu=C3=B2w=C3=
=A9i" - accomplish; action; to regard (sth as sth); to look=20
upon (sth as); conduct
=E4=BD=9C=E4=B8=BA=E7=9F=A5=E5=B7=B1 take sb. for a close friend
*Also.*
=E4=B8=BA
I
(=E7=82=BA, =E4=B8=BA)
w=C3=A9i
act as; take...to be; to be; to do; to serve as; to become
II
(=E7=88=B2, =E4=B8=BA)
w=C3=A9i
variant of =E7=82=BA; to take as; to serve as; to act as; to behave as

Also.=20
=E5=BD=93 d=C3=A0ng treat as; regard as; take for
=E4=B8=8D=E8=A6=81=E6=8A=8A=E6=88=91=E5=BD=93=E5=B0=8F=E5=AD=A9=E7=9C=8B=E5=
=BE=85=E3=80=82 Don't treat me as (like) a child.

All of my Chinese friends seem to be sleeping at the moment so I can't=20
check.


Arabic.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/part
=D8=AF=D9=8E=D9=88=D9=92=D8=B1=E2=80=8E =E2=80=A2 (dawr)  - position or rol=
e.

German Rolle
Russian [rol]
Italian [ruol]

*Preliminary results.*
jue 0.246117399315609 az 0.213872071597789 komo 0.094630165833114 kak=20
0.051855751513556 komo 0.048828639115557

results in {kazmo}. If we replace [jue] with "zuowei" [tsuouei]/[tsove] the=
=20
results won't change in ther words Mandarin word completely ignored by the=
=20
algorithm.

jue 0.246117399315609 az 0.213872071597789 komo 0.094630165833114 kak=20
0.051855751513556 komo 0.048828639115557
results in {kazve}.
Replacing with [dan] results in {dazne}


> Since this concept seems so widely applicable, it would seem to be=20
> useful to have a gismu for it that begins with x, so that one of the=20
> remaining experimentals of the xV'V series can be used as its BAI.=20
>

As you can see no traces of the phoneme [x/h].
You can infringe the algorithm of course and end up with (e.g.) {xezve}=20
with {xe'e} as a BAI.

Although I'd prefer {komve} (from "como" and "wei") with {ko'ei} as a BAI.

But to tell you the truth I can see no good place for sumtcita of this *pu'=
o=20
gismu*, if we strictly follow the algorithm.
All the places are taken.



> I just don't want to go too far on my own only to be forced later to=20
> undo everything.=20
>
> Also, the current theatre project from the other thread is a place where=
=20
> this construction is required and I have to finish it by this Monday.=20
> I'm not sure what to do now...=20
>
> mu'o mi'e la selpa'i=20
>
>
> --=20
> pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo=20
>
> do=E1=BB=8B m=C3=A8lbi mlen=C3=AC'u=20
>     .i do c=C3=A0tlu ki'u=20
> ma fe la x=C3=A0mpre =C5=ADu=20
>     .i do t=C3=ACnsa c=C3=A0rmi=20
> gi'e s=C3=ACrji se t=C3=A0rmi=20
>     .i ta=E1=BB=8B bo pu c=C3=ACtka lo gr=C3=A0na ku=20
>
>
> .=20
>
>
> .=20
>

--=20
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------=_Part_75_12639116.1352617687732
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<br><br>On Sunday, November 11, 2012 4:29:00 AM UTC+4, selpa'i wrote:<block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-le=
ft: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">Am 11.11.2012 01:19, schrieb Jorge L=
lamb=C3=ADas:
<br>&gt; For the general case, I think you need, as you already proposed, a
<br>&gt; selbri that means something like "x1 qua x2 is/does x3".
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; Making x3 the main bridi with "qua" as a tag has the same sort of
<br>&gt; problems that "zmadu" has, since you want to distinguish:
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; I give you this as your friend.
<br>&gt; I give you this as a present.
<br>&gt; I give you this as my friend.
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; where in each case the "as"-term is linked to a different argument=
. So
<br>&gt; it seems to me the best thing is either use a selbri meaning "qua"=
 in
<br>&gt; the main bridi, or make a lujvo (like the -mau lujvo) that already
<br>&gt; selects which argument is being qualified.
<br>
<br>I think you can attach the "qua" tag with a {be} or {pe} to attach it t=
o=20
<br>one of the arguments. The problem right now is just that no such selbri=
=20
<br>exists, and I don't know what to do about that. It's somewhat urgent=20
<br>that this word be made, but at the same time, making new gismu is not=
=20
<br>easily accepted.&nbsp;<br></blockquote><div>&nbsp;</div><div><br></div>=
<div>Some time ago i promised to help every time this problem arises.&nbsp;=
</div><div>Even if I'm given the task to create a gismu at the light of spe=
ed I doubt that the source languages</div><div>have the necessary word for =
this.</div><div><br></div><div><b>The word "as"</b></div><div>In English an=
d Russian these are basically prepositions</div><div>English "as" [az]/[ez]=
</div><div>Russian "kak"</div><div>In Hindi phrase "treat me as your friend=
" the preposition is translated as "k=C4=93 r=C5=ABpa m=C4=93=E1=B9=81" [ke=
rupmem]</div><div><br></div><div>Wiktionary treats this meaning as "in the =
manner or role specified"</div><div>http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/as<br></d=
iv><div><br></div><div>from which we can assume that it's basically</div><d=
iv>Spanish "como" [komo]</div><div><div>Portuguese "como" [komo]</div></div=
><div>Italian "come" [kome]</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><b>What=
 if we search for "role/part"?</b></div><div><br></div><div>My Mandarin dic=
tionary says that it should be&nbsp;</div><div><div>"=E8=A7=92 - ju=C3=A9" =
that means "role; part; character"<br></div><div>"=E8=A7=92=E8=89=B2 - ju=
=C3=A9s=C3=A8" that means "role"</div><div>"play the role of" - "=E6=8B=85=
=E4=BB=BB...=E8=A7=92=E8=89=B2"</div><div><br></div><div><div>Another optio=
n is to search for "qua".</div><div>"=E4=BD=9C=E4=B8=BA (=E4=BD=9C=E7=82=BA=
, =E4=BD=9C=E4=B8=BA) zu=C3=B2w=C3=A9i" - accomplish; action; to regard (st=
h as sth); to look upon (sth as); conduct</div><div><div>=E4=BD=9C=E4=B8=BA=
=E7=9F=A5=E5=B7=B1 take sb. for a close friend<br></div></div><div><div><i>=
Also.</i></div><div>=E4=B8=BA</div><div>I</div><div>(=E7=82=BA, =E4=B8=BA)<=
/div><div>w=C3=A9i</div><div>act as; take...to be; to be; to do; to serve a=
s; to become</div><div>II</div><div>(=E7=88=B2, =E4=B8=BA)</div><div>w=C3=
=A9i</div><div>variant of =E7=82=BA; to take as; to serve as; to act as; to=
 behave as</div></div><div><br></div><div>Also.&nbsp;</div><div><div>=E5=BD=
=93 d=C3=A0ng&nbsp;treat as; regard as; take for</div></div><div>=E4=B8=8D=
=E8=A6=81=E6=8A=8A=E6=88=91=E5=BD=93=E5=B0=8F=E5=AD=A9=E7=9C=8B=E5=BE=85=E3=
=80=82 Don't treat me as (like) a child.<br></div><div><br></div><div>All o=
f my Chinese friends seem to be sleeping at the moment so I can't check.</d=
iv></div></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Arabic.</div><div>http://=
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/part<br></div><div>=D8=AF=D9=8E=D9=88=D9=92=D8=B1=E2=
=80=8E =E2=80=A2 (dawr) &nbsp;- position or role.<br></div><div><br></div><=
div>German Rolle</div><div>Russian [rol]</div><div>Italian [ruol]<br><br><b=
>Preliminary results.</b></div><div>jue 0.246117399315609 az 0.213872071597=
789 komo 0.094630165833114 kak 0.051855751513556 komo 0.048828639115557<br>=
</div><div><br></div><div>results in {kazmo}. If we replace [jue] with "zuo=
wei" [tsuouei]/[tsove] the results won't change in ther words Mandarin word=
 completely ignored by the algorithm.<br></div><div><br></div><div><div>jue=
 0.246117399315609 az 0.213872071597789 komo 0.094630165833114 kak 0.051855=
751513556 komo 0.048828639115557</div></div><div>results in {kazve}.</div><=
div>Replacing with [dan] results in {dazne}</div><div><br></div><div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left=
-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: soli=
d; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>Since this concept seems so widely applicable, i=
t would seem to be&nbsp;<br>useful to have a gismu for it that begins with =
x, so that one of the&nbsp;<br>remaining experimentals of the xV'V series c=
an be used as its BAI.&nbsp;<br></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>As y=
ou can see no traces of the phoneme [x/h].</div><div>You can infringe the a=
lgorithm of course and end up with (e.g.) {xezve} with {xe'e} as a BAI.</di=
v><div><br></div><div>Although I'd prefer {komve} (from "como" and "wei") w=
ith {ko'ei} as a BAI.</div><div><br></div><div>But to tell you the truth I =
can see no good place for sumtcita of this <i>pu'o gismu</i>, if we strictl=
y follow the algorithm.</div><div>All the places are taken.</div><div><br><=
/div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;ma=
rgin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>I just don't want to go too far on my own only to be forced later to=20
<br>undo everything.
<br>
<br>Also, the current theatre project from the other thread is a place wher=
e=20
<br>this construction is required and I have to finish it by this Monday.=
=20
<br>I'm not sure what to do now...
<br>
<br>mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
<br>
<br>
<br>--=20
<br>pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo
<br>
<br>do=E1=BB=8B m=C3=A8lbi mlen=C3=AC'u
<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; .i do c=C3=A0tlu ki'u
<br>ma fe la x=C3=A0mpre =C5=ADu
<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; .i do t=C3=ACnsa c=C3=A0rmi
<br>gi'e s=C3=ACrji se t=C3=A0rmi
<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; .i ta=E1=BB=8B bo pu c=C3=ACtka lo gr=C3=A0na ku
<br>
<br>
<br>.
<br>
<br>
<br>.
<br></blockquote>

<p></p>

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