=C2=A0 Weirdly enough, a few days ago, before I read this = message, I saw a sign on the campus of the hospital where I worked, stating= "smoking not permitted beyond this point", and I was thinking th= at in lojban that would be "lo nu =C2=A0sigva'u cu na se curmi zo&= #39;i ti" =C2=A0Why zo'i? =C2=A0Because it was specifically=C2=A0d= elineating the area closer to the buildings than that sign. =C2=A0=C2=A0Of = course, I didn't make that explicit, which I could do with something li= ke "va ki lo spita dinju" at the beginning of the sentence

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 12:15 PM, la gleki <gleki= .is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

=
On Wednesday, November 7, 2012 8:52:31 PM UTC+4, selpa'i wrote: Am 07.11.2012 15:57, schrieb la gleki:
>
>
> On Wednesday, November 7, 2012 6:41:11 PM UTC+4, selpa'i wrote= :
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Upon further reflection, I have concluded that only = the event
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 interpretation makes sense, so
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 mi zutse zo'i lo rirxe
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 would expand to
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 lo nu mi zutse cu tolragve lo rirxe [lo manri]
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "I'm sitting on this/the same side of the r= iver."
>
>
> Which tags refer to an arguments and which refer to the bridi?
> Is there a table of tags classified by this distinction?

As far as I am aware, no such table exists. In my personal opinion, any= =20
tags whose root place structure allow an event place somewhere should= =20
redistribute the event of the bridi into that place. For tags where an= =20
event place doesn't exist, the solution is less straightforward, bu= t I=20
think that in many cases, it can be systemized by use of thematic roles= =20
(e.g. agent, patient, etc).
I don't think such a formalization has been done yet, but I would v= ery=20
much like to work on it, because as of right now, many tags have very= =20
blurry semantics.

mi sanga bau lo lojbo

What does bau semantically attach to? Leaving that up to context is not= =20
satisfactory, so there must be an unambiguous machanism to determine th= e=20
relationship of a tag to the bridi or its sumti.
Does bau attach to the event of the bridi? Does it attach to mi? To san= ga2?
My preferred solution for this particular example has been to say that= =20
bangu3 takes the event of the bridi thus:

lo lojbo cu bangu fi lo nu mi sanga

Which means that bangu3 needs to be changed to something like "...= [to=20
communicate] in situation x3". (Not a big deal because I have neve= r seen=20
bangu3 used)

Under the light of this idea, many gismu need slight alterations (most= =20
of which probably would not break usage). The reward is a robust=20
semantical system.

There are edge cases where both interpretations could be argued for, a= =20
good example is {se rai}. As far as I can tell, it has always been used= =20
to refer to a sumti, usually the place that would be assigned the=20
"agent" theta role:

mi bajra se rai lo ka sutra
I run as fast as possible.

I think this has questionable semantics, because none of the=20
interactions have been formalized. It could also be taken to mean:

lo nu mi bajra cu traji lo ka sutra

Which has a type error, since an event is not a sutra1.

Such examples exist all over the place, I think it's clear why some= thing=20
has to be done about it, especially if one of Lojban's Goals is to= =20
communicate with computers one day.

If anybody else is interested in discussing this - in my opinion - very= =20
important topic, I'd be glad to exchange some ideas.

I always intuitively hated= sumtcita and {fi'o}. And the only thing that want is to have a clear e= xplanation and solution.

How many gismu have to be affected? (of = course i can mark all of them myself if I had a better understanding how to= search for them)

If you can please write a short article to the wiki (to= BPFK section or whatever).

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
--=20
pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo

do=E1=BB=8B m=C3=A8lbi mlen=C3=AC'u
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 .i do c=C3=A0tlu ki'u
ma fe la x=C3=A0mpre =C5=ADu
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 .i do t=C3=ACnsa c=C3=A0rmi
gi'e s=C3=ACrji se t=C3=A0rmi
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 .i ta=E1=BB=8B bo pu c=C3=ACtka lo gr=C3=A0na ku
=C2=A0=C2=A0

.

.

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