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Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 15:43:06 -0700
From: ".alyn.post." <alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: A new Lojbanic wiki (LMW). On the threshold of the
 25th anniversary of Lojban
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I can shed light on the translation issue.

Mediawiki is primarily developed for Wikipedia, which is a course a
massively multilingual project, but you'll notice that they run
different instances of Mediawiki for each language.  In that sense,
any specific installation of mediawiki largely to entirely consists
of a single language, while the family of installations supports
many.

I believe the recommended practice for using mediawiki in multiple
languages is to install one site for each language you'd like to
support.

There is work on addressing this problem for users outside of the
wikimedia foundation:

  http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Language_in_MediaWiki
  http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Multilingual_MediaWiki

And some extensions that help with certain aspects of this problem:

  http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Translate
  http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:DoubleWiki

But I believe that as it stands today, if you want two languages
that are both first class citizens in your wiki, you deploy two
mediawiki instances and cross-link them with interwiki links like
Wikipedia does with it's wikis.

-Alan

On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 01:40:04PM -0800, vruxir wrote:
>    Here's what I've learned about the current Tiki Wiki: it has 2,363
>    articles. You can see a full list of them
>    here: [1]http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-listpages.php
>    What I can't seem to do is get a full "dump" (export) of the articles. It
>    might be that the feature isn't turned on by the administrator.
>    Instructions for doing so are
>    here: [2]http://doc.tiki.org/Wiki+Config#Dumps
>    There is a python script
>    ([3]http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:TikiWiki_Conversion) which
>    converts TikiWiki dumps to MediaWiki XML files. It requires the dumped
>    .tar file; also requires MySQL access to the Tiki server to "create an XML
>    dump of the metadata for the Tiki images". The instructions for doing so
>    are on the page linked in this paragraph.
>    Now that I've fooled with the MediaWiki translate feature a little bit, I
>    see that it is kind of finicky, and it defaults to English, and that, for
>    example, "ralju_ckupau/en" means the same thing as "ralju_ckupau" (except
>    that the article title does not depend exclusively on the URL in the "/en"
>    version).
>    One (possible) problem with the translation tool is that it seems like you
>    have to define the structure of the page in English (or the default
>    language) before you can create a translation. You can divide the page
>    into a number of "chunks" ("messages") to be translated, or you can
>    probably make the whole page be a single "chunk". How many "chunks" you
>    define determines how well you can monitor the quality of translations.
>    A nastier problem is that the Tiki Wiki pages are in many languages; some
>    are all English, others all Lojban, others (such as discussion pages and
>    self-introduction pages) may be in more than one language. The primary
>    language of a Tiki article is optionally marked, but usually it is not
>    marked. So, when importing all those Tiki articles into a MediaWiki
>    framework, they might all have to be temporarily dumped into the default
>    language namespace, then marked with a tag saying "This article was
>    uploaded from the old Tiki Wiki and is marked as being
>    (Lojban/English/Whatever the default is). If the language of this article
>    is different, please move it to the appropriate namespace."
>    But moving the article to the appropriate language might not be
>    straightforward... I'll have to mess around with it and see. I'm still not
>    clear on whether you can base an article in a language other than the
>    default, and ensure that the original article (in whatever language) is
>    the basis for other translations.
>    mu'o mi'e vruxir
>    On Thursday, November 15, 2012 3:19:58 PM UTC-5, entot wrote:
> 
>      I like the idea of adding a {{cleanup}} template too.
>      Now I'm leaning towards the option of importing all pages.
>      On Wednesday, November 14, 2012 3:03:00 AM UTC+9, .alyn.post. wrote:
> 
>        I'm 100% onboard with improving the user experience of our wiki: I
>        find the TWiki frustrating in that regard too.  I'm not certain what
>        tools mediawiki gives us to mitigate this problem: it's a function
>        of the content rather than the platform [snip]
> 
>      I argue that having a familiar-looking interface itself is an
>      improvement to the user experience. Also a better editing
>      experience, which I think MediaWiki offers over TWiki,
>      facilitates better content organization.
>      mu'o
>      On Wednesday, November 14, 2012 4:47:05 AM UTC+9, .alyn.post. wrote:
> 
>        I like the suggestion of a {{cleanup}} template.  I've been working
>        on general workflow templates over at OpenCog:
> 
>          [4]http://wiki.opencog.org/w/Curation
> 
>        And they are similar to this idea.  You can mark a page as a
>        {{stub}}, mark it as work in progress ({{WIP}})* write it until
>        it's a {{proposal}}, and then {{withdraw}} it if it's a bad idea
>        or tag it with a {{version}} if it becomes a feature.  Later work
>        may cause it to be {{obsolete}} and if you don't keep it in sync
>        it might get {{out of date}}.
> 
>        These templates also take care to register the pages in the
>        appropriate namespaces, so a curator can see which pages are in
>        which categories.  I like workflow processes like this because any
>        effort has a 'long tail' of incomplete, partial, bad, and promising
>        ideas that don't quite fit into the existing structure of the wiki.
> 
>        mi'e .alyn.
> 
>        * = adding that is on my list, it doesn't exist yet.
> 
>        On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 11:29:43AM -0800, vruxir wrote:
>        >    I'm of the opinion that it would benefit a future Wiki if it has
>        imported
>        >    ALL the contents from the TWiki. If that can be done
>        automatically, then
>        >    hopefully there's also a way to automatically place a "Cleanup"
>        box at the
>        >    top of each imported article, saying something to the effect of:
>        >    "This article was imported from the old [5]lojban.org Tiki Wiki
>        and may not
>        >    meet the content and style guidelines of this Wiki. Please see
>        our
>        >    _content and style guidelines_ and clean up this article. If you
>        feel that
>        >    the article is named inappropriately, the article can be moved to
>        a new
>        >    name. Do not remove this tag until the article is up to
>        standards."
>        >    Then you'll want to have some content and style guidelines,
>        probably
>        >    inspired by Wikipedia or other successful Wikis.
>        >    (When you move an article to a new name, the old name becomes a
>        redirect;
>        >    if you replace the old name with a new article, you can insert
>        tags at the
>        >    top of the article with suggestions to visit the moved article.
>        See, for
>        >    example, the top of the article
>        [1][6]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation
>        >    )
>        >    If there is a debate about what a word really MEANS, then I would
>        think
>        >    the article about that word needs to report the differing
>        viewpoints
>        >    (including CLL's viewpoint) and what level of support the
>        viewpoints
>        >    have. Then the actual continuing debate over the meaning of the
>        word could
>        >    go in the Discussion tab, OR if it's possible to create another
>        tab with a
>        >    more appropriate name (e.g. "Grammar Debate"), do that and leave
>        the
>        >    Discussion tab for talking about the quality of the article
>        itself.
>        >    By importing all the TWiki content to the new Wiki (and marking
>        them all
>        >    for "cleanup"), you can safely redirect people from the TWiki to
>        the new
>        >    Wiki if/when it has been demonstrated that the new Wiki is
>        superior, and
>        >    you don't have to worry about losing important discussions.
>        >    mu'o mi'e vruxir
>        >    On Tuesday, November 13, 2012 12:16:51 PM UTC-5, .alyn.post.
>        wrote:
>        >
>        >      On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 04:21:14AM -0800, la gleki wrote:
>        >      >        * We're making a fresh start, so why not keep it
>        clean?
>        >
>        >      To be contrary a moment,
>        >
>        >      I've put a lot of work in writing and organizing TWiki pages.
>         I'm
>        >      happy to have them migrated to mediawiki, but I'm more-or-less
>        being
>        >      told that the work I've done on TWiki isn't valuable ("fresh
>        start").
>        >      Any work I would do on the new wiki would need to access/refer
>        to/
>        >      modify the pages I have worked on than are in TWiki.
>        >
>        >      I'd love to have them imported to Mediawiki, but as things
>        stand I feel
>        >      like work I've put into the wiki is more-or-less being deleted
>        (you can
>        >      call it archiving if you want) and I'm wondering what the heck
>        I would
>        >      be expected to do with the new wiki when all the content I want
>        to work
>        >      on is in the old wiki.
>        >
>        >      mi'e .alyn.
>        >      --
>        >      .i ma'a lo bradi cu penmi gi'e du
>        >
>        >    --
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>        >
>        > References
>        >
>        >    Visible links
>        >    1. [9]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation
>        >    2. [10]https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/01evXYCxTw8J
> 
>        --
>        .i ma'a lo bradi cu penmi gi'e du
> 
>    --
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>    [11]https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/k82SpExmkYYJ.
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> 
> References
> 
>    Visible links
>    1. http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-listpages.php
>    2. http://doc.tiki.org/Wiki+Config#Dumps
>    3. http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:TikiWiki_Conversion
>    4. http://wiki.opencog.org/w/Curation
>    5. http://lojban.org/
>    6. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation
>    7. https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/01evXYCxTw8J
>    8. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>    9. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation
>   10. https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/01evXYCxTw8J
>   11. https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/k82SpExmkYYJ

-- 
.i ma'a lo bradi cu penmi gi'e du

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