Received: from mail-vc0-f189.google.com ([209.85.220.189]:34220) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TZOaC-0003F8-AU; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 08:16:24 -0800 Received: by mail-vc0-f189.google.com with SMTP id fl17sf1868646vcb.16 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 08:15:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=HYHn4KUDaBB++YhqUzdYsKeBPQgGmQzw86c77xbZhXU=; b=DEuZ+JXncHH0JrxlGsVUSe3BxJ5jeNd8HNr9DGBY2wkQo0dtWvxyOlEaDOEdBK25d9 QMxvhnomKM5lTKQQCO3Wl/7HEvbuqRKWLI8wwNQPdINVIlgC8FqTTMbJHvVR6/8nCP+i 8HUYBHKzOIyhHyg3sp5cfGSzygfrpDWhOBx+hHJu73kKxxOuAX6Ti9EnQH++zQbOxvq/ ypgB7L0JS6ez4FjOkxF5AKW03pOOrY3thpyqpf1xX4sAUled/lEzQGURWjbPNDOdlC2p gZhqBxqTNITs/L4uAEEOl2kFuG80iJe+7rbMGEp5po6xDcyvFk2x+rKDNT0T+22FRCDe 5zyw== Received: by 10.49.24.164 with SMTP id v4mr1064637qef.6.1353082549218; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 08:15:49 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.24.13 with SMTP id q13ls1087004qef.57.gmail; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 08:15:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.224.180.141 with SMTP id bu13mr3294172qab.2.1353082547810; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 08:15:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.224.173.148 with SMTP id p20msqaz; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 00:51:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.49.24.164 with SMTP id v4mr802237qef.6.1353055905480; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 00:51:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 00:51:44 -0800 (PST) From: Marc Laporte To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2d4db499-3585-4456-b7c7-6a6846d6bcee@googlegroups.com> References: <98ac3a8c-7f91-4049-a8ee-128f9a947671@googlegroups.com> <60b24557-d28a-4330-91e2-4fa350f35cbd@googlegroups.com> <6cb197db-5690-48fb-8a88-3e633bb6f94b@googlegroups.com> <285a3908-97fd-4231-8767-479dd0779da8@googlegroups.com> <20121113171712.GG22972@sunflowerriver.org> <699d8b9d-2f04-4a0a-b2cf-a9f498ac19fd@googlegroups.com> <20121113194725.GL22972@sunflowerriver.org> <7c389416-3ceb-4d21-9b6b-e4e1cb5d312f@googlegroups.com> <2d4db499-3585-4456-b7c7-6a6846d6bcee@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: A new Lojbanic wiki (LMW). On the threshold of the 25th anniversary of Lojban MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: marclaporte@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_659_20312259.1353055904894" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_659_20312259.1353055904894 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi! I am a project admin for Tiki and I'd like to share some information. 1- On this list, some refer to Twiki and some to Tiki. These are two distinct projects. Tiki Wiki CMS Groupware (or just Tiki) is in PHP http://tiki.org Twiki is in Perl http://twiki.org It's important that you know this, so if you do some research and comparison, you'll be looking at the right tool. 2- Changing tools takes time & energy and data is lost. What features are you missing in Tiki? Tiki has been for several years now, the Free and Open Source Web Application with the most built-in features http://tiki.org/FOSS+Web+Application+with+the+most+built-in+features Let me repeat that to be very clear. Of all the web applications in the World, Tiki is the FOSS web app with the most built-in features. Chances are, what you need/want is just a checkbox away. You can use for much more than just a wiki but everything to do with the community (forums, blog, calendar, issue/task tracker, etc.) 2a) "I can't embed pictures on tiki pages like on MediaWiki" -> embedding pictures exists, just need to activate. All wikis handle pictures! And coming to Tiki10 (now in Alpha): the World's first full-featured both Open Source and Web-based screencasting solution: http://doc.tiki.org/Screencast Not only can it take a snapshot of your desktop, you can even draw on the image, or even record your screen with audio! Having audio recordings of Lojban terms in wiki pages would be cool, no? 2b) "MediaWiki seems to provide better editing support and, most importantly, a place to shove all of our discussions" Tiki has: http://doc.tiki.org/Comments http://doc.tiki.org/Inline+comments Please let me know what better editing support you need. The wiki toolbar (with buttons for bold, italic, etc.) is not activated on lojban.org Go try demo.tiki.org to see what it's like normally. http://doc.tiki.org/Toolbar 2c) "fresh start" Tiki has a powerful category system. You could categorize all pages, and from the category, have a different theme or permissions. So eventually, old pages can be kept but not visible by anonymous users. http://doc.tiki.org/Category This permits a fresh start without the risk of duplicating data. 3- Tiki has superb multilingual handling. It's all detailed here: http://wiki-translation.com/tiki-download_wiki_attachment.php?attId=55&download=y I challenge anyone to find a more advanced system. I presented several times, including at the latest WikiMania: https://wikimania2012.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Cross-lingual_Wiki_Engine No one has anything like this. Wikipedia has a different instance for each language. This makes it difficult to do content tracking, although they have a system to track the corresponding page-link in the other language. But this means that you need to add a new MediaWiki instance for each language. In Tiki, you just add a page, and no extra work is needed to add a new language. 4- Here is an example of a community than went from MediaWiki to Tiki, to have more features: http://www.ogre3d.org/tikiwiki/Ogre+Wiki+Help Not only is Tiki the web app with the most built-in features, no other major CMS / Web app has released more major versions in the last 4 year: * 2009-05: http://doc.tiki.org/Tiki3 LTS * 2009-11: http://doc.tiki.org/Tiki4 * 2010-06: http://doc.tiki.org/Tiki5 * 2010-11: http://doc.tiki.org/Tiki6 LTS * 2011-06: http://doc.tiki.org/Tiki7 * 2011-11: http://doc.tiki.org/Tiki8 * 2012-06: http://doc.tiki.org/Tiki9 LTS * 2012-11: http://doc.tiki.org/Tiki10 (in alpha at the moment) To be fair, WordPress also had 8 major releases during the same approximative time frame (http://wordpress.org/about/roadmap/). More recently than Tiki, Typo3 and Joomla! have moved to a 6-month release cycle. But in all these cases, with their extension-based model, not all features are ready at the same time. And sometimes, extensions are never ported to the next version. Thanks to the Tiki model, we have inherent synchronized releases http://tiki.org/Model#Inherent_synchronized_releases With over 50% of browser usage on the rapid release cycle (Chrome and Firefox), it makes perfect sense for web applications to have a rapid release cycle as well. Tiki is well positioned to take advantage of all the innovations! However, some people are happy with the current feature set, and Long Term Support (LTS) versions were introduced in 2009, and more recently, we doubled the support period: http://info.tiki.org/Version+Lifecycle Tiki turned 10 years old last month http://info.tiki.org/article201-A-Decade-of-Tiki Tiki reached 500 contributors with commit access (top project on SourceForge.net) http://info.tiki.org/article188-Tiki-reaches-500-contributors-with-commit-access Listen to the podcast! Tiki Passed 1 Million Downloads http://info.tiki.org/article192-Tiki-Passes-1-Million-Downloads Tiki wins People's Choice: Best Free CMS of the CMS Critic's awards https://info.tiki.org/article206-Tiki-wins-People-s-Choice-Best-Free-CMS Tiki was named best "Best Web Tool" by WebHostingSearch.com http://info.tiki.org/article197-Tiki-Named-Best-Web-Tool And for previous news, see 2011 Year in Review: http://info.tiki.org/article181-2011-Year-in-Review I think you'll agree: it's pretty impressive! And Tiki has features that MediaWiki will never have. There is also the Interactive Translation feature: http://doc.tiki.org/Interactive+Translation This permits web-based, in-context translations of the interface. So community members can translate not only the content but also the app to Lojban! So I suggest: 1- Make a list of what you want 2- Upgrade Tiki to latest version (your version seems to be 2 years old) 3- Then, decide to keep or change. Best regards, M ;-) PS. Below is a copy-paste of a generic list of Top Reasons to Use Tiki: 1. *A confident and future-proof choice* : - Over a million downloadsand counting - Tiki has been nominated for, and received, several awards - Uses top-notch Underlying technologies: - PHP scripting language - MySQL or MariaDB database - Smarty template engine - jQuery JavaScript library - Zend Framework 2. * A vibrant community* - IRC chat room, discussion forums, documentation, etc. - If you want hired help, or want to offer services, there is a Tiki Service Provider program - Tiki is a community recursively building a community management system, which is called Dogfooding 3. *Tons of features*: - Over 1,500 unique features/options making it the Free and Open Source Web Application with the most built-in features - Ideal for most use cases, such as Collaboration, Publishing, Commerce, Social networking, Office productivity tools, E-learning, etc. - Has the breadth and depth to most likely address your specific needs as it has been developed through the collaborative work of hundreds of contributors for over 10 years. 4. * Features are built-in* - *No need to research, choose, download and install additional modules/extensions/plugins*: There is no feature duplication. All the features are built-in, collaboratively maintained by the community, so you avoid the pain of abandoned modules/plugins/extensions. - *Everything works with everything*: The whole community collaborates on the features instead of having modules/extensions/plugins which may have incompatibilities. Turn everything on and it will work. Try that with modules/extensions/plugins! [image: :-)] - *Quick timely upgrades*: When a new version of Tiki comes out, you can upgrade right away and all the features are available. 5. *Interoperable*: - Can run on any Operating System (Windows, Mac or Linux) - Works with any browser - Interoperability with a very large number of online services, complementary software, technologies and standards. 6. *Open Collaboration*: If you need a new feature, join the community and let's work together. If you are a developer, check out How to get commit access 7. *Innovation*: For the latest and greatest and quick access to new features, use the rapid release cycle, with 2 new major releases per year. No other major web applications has had more major releases since 2008. On average, developers update the code (with new features and fixes) over a dozen times every day. 8. *Stability*: For a super stable system with very few changes: Use the Long Term Support (LTS) versions, which is supported for 3.5 years. 9. *Easy install*: You can use the 1-click installers. All the features, languages, etc. are available in the basic install. 10. *Easy to configure* : All features/options are activated from the web-based control panel. 11. *Adaptable*: By default, only a small number of basic, commonly-used features appear in the control panel. As your needs grow, you can also display advanced and experimental features/options. 12. *Easy upgrades*: Upgrade from any past version to any supported version in one step. (so you can upgrade from 2.x to 15.x) - No need to deal with diverse release dates of core software vs modules/plugins/extensions 13. *No lock-in*: Community supported, no single vendor. 14. *Free*: free & open source software, licensed as LGPL. On Friday, 16 November 2012 01:25:53 UTC-5, iesk wrote: > > How about > - not using a translation extension; > - setting the default (= menu display and so on) language to Lojban > (logged in users may be able to change it for themselves); > - letting everybody write in what language(s) (s)he prefers; > - using tags ('categories'?) like 'eng', 'deu', 'jbo', ... whatever; > - preparing templates like 'This is a translation of [[bla]].' or 'Cf. > [[corresponding page]] in [[language]].' to be used where seen fit? > > A bit chaotic perhaps, but less demanding for users/editors, I believe. > > -iesk > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/lH2tnZE8HmAJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. ------=_Part_659_20312259.1353055904894 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi!

I am a project admin for Tiki and I'd like to share some informa= tion.

1- On this list, some refer to Twiki and some to Tiki. These a= re two distinct projects.
Tiki Wiki CMS Groupware (or just Tiki) is in P= HP  http://tiki.org
Twiki is in Perl   http://twiki.org
It's important that you know this, so if you do some research and com= parison, you'll be looking at the right tool.


2- Changing tools = takes time & energy and data is lost. What features are you missing in = Tiki?

Tiki has been for several years now, the Free and Open Source = Web Application with the most built-in features
http://tiki.org/FOSS+Web= +Application+with+the+most+built-in+features

Let me repeat that to be very clear. Of all the web applications in the=20 World, Tiki is the FOSS web app with the most built-in features. Chances are, what you need/want is just a checkbox away. You can use for much=20 more than just a wiki but everything to do with the community (forums,=20 blog, calendar, issue/task tracker, etc.)

2a) "I can't embed=20 pictures on tiki pages like on MediaWiki" -> embedding pictures=20 exists, just need to activate. All wikis handle pictures!  And coming = to Tiki10 (now in Alpha): the World's first full-featured both Open Source and Web-based screencasting solution: http://doc.tiki.org/Screencast =  =20 Not only can it take a snapshot of your desktop, you can even draw on=20 the image, or even record your screen with audio!   Having audio= =20 recordings of Lojban terms in wiki pages would be cool, no?

2b) "Med= iaWiki seems to provide better editing support and, most importantly, a pla= ce to shove all of our discussions"

Tiki has:
http://doc.tiki.org= /Comments
http://doc.tiki.org/Inline+comments

Please let me know = what better editing support you need.

The wiki toolbar (with buttons for bold, italic, etc.) is not activated on=20 lojban.org    Go try demo.tiki.org to see what it's like nor= mally.
http://doc.tiki.org/Toolbar

2c) "fresh start"

Tiki has a powerful category system. You could categorize all pages, and=20 from the category, have a different theme or permissions. So eventually, old pages can be kept but not visible by anonymous users.
http://doc.ti= ki.org/Category

This permits a fresh start without the risk of dupli= cating data.

3- Tiki has superb multilingual handling. It's all det= ailed here:
http://wiki-translation.com/tiki-download_wiki_attachment.ph= p?attId=3D55&download=3Dy

I challenge anyone to find a more adva= nced system. I presented several times, including at the latest WikiMania:<= br>https://wikimania2012.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Cross-lingual_Wiki_= Engine

No one has anything like this. Wikipedia has a different instance for each language. This makes it difficult to do content tracking, although they have a system to track the corresponding page-link in the other=20 language. But this means that you need to add a new MediaWiki instance=20 for each language. In Tiki, you just add a page, and no extra work is=20 needed to add a new language.

4- Here is an example of a community t= han went from MediaWiki to Tiki, to have more features:
http://www.ogre3= d.org/tikiwiki/Ogre+Wiki+Help

Not only is Tiki the web app with the most built-in features, no other=20 major CMS / Web app has released more major versions in the last 4 year:* 2009-05: http://doc.tiki.org/Tiki3 LTS
* 2009-11: http://doc.tiki.org= /Tiki4
* 2010-06: http://doc.tiki.org/Tiki5
* 2010-11: http://doc.tik= i.org/Tiki6 LTS
* 2011-06: http://doc.tiki.org/Tiki7
* 2011-11: http:= //doc.tiki.org/Tiki8
* 2012-06: http://doc.tiki.org/Tiki9 LTS
* 2012-= 11: http://doc.tiki.org/Tiki10 (in alpha at the moment)

To be fair, WordPress also had 8 major releases during the same=20 approximative time frame (http://wordpress.org/about/roadmap/). More=20 recently than Tiki, Typo3 and Joomla! have moved to a 6-month release=20 cycle. But in all these cases, with their extension-based model, not all features are ready at the same time. And sometimes, extensions are=20 never ported to the next version. Thanks to the Tiki model, we have=20 inherent synchronized releases
http://tiki.org/Model#Inherent_synchroniz= ed_releases

With over 50% of browser usage on the rapid release cycle (Chrome and=20 Firefox), it makes perfect sense for web applications to have a rapid=20 release cycle as well. Tiki is well positioned to take advantage of all=20 the innovations! However, some people are happy with the current feature set, and Long Term Support (LTS) versions were introduced in 2009, and=20 more recently, we doubled the support period:=20 http://info.tiki.org/Version+Lifecycle

Tiki turned 10 years old last= month
http://info.tiki.org/article201-A-Decade-of-Tiki

Tiki reac= hed 500 contributors with commit access (top project on SourceForge.net)http://info.tiki.org/article188-Tiki-reaches-500-contributors-with-commit-= access
     Listen to the podcast!

Tiki Passed 1 M= illion Downloads
http://info.tiki.org/article192-Tiki-Passes-1-Million-D= ownloads

Tiki wins People's Choice: Best Free CMS of the CMS Critic'= s awards
https://info.tiki.org/article206-Tiki-wins-People-s-Choice-Best= -Free-CMS

Tiki was named best "Best Web Tool" by WebHostingSearch.co= m
http://info.tiki.org/article197-Tiki-Named-Best-Web-Tool

And fo= r previous news, see 2011 Year in Review:
http://info.tiki.org/article18= 1-2011-Year-in-Review

I think you'll agree: it's pretty impressive!<= br>
And Tiki has features that MediaWiki will never have.

There i= s also the Interactive Translation feature: http://doc.tiki.org/Interactive= +Translation
This permits web-based, in-context translations of the interface. So=20 community members can translate not only the content but also the app to Lojban!

So I suggest:

1- Make a list of what you want
2- = Upgrade Tiki to latest version  (your version seems to be 2 years old)=
3- Then, decide to keep or change.

Best regards,

M ;-)
PS. Below is a copy-paste of a generic list of Top Reasons to Use Tiki= :

  1. A confident and future-proof choice :
  2. A vibrant community
    • IRC chat room, discussion forums, documentation, etc.
    • If you want hired help, or want to offer services, there is a Tiki Service Provider program
    • Tiki is a community recursively building a community management s= ystem, which is called Dogfooding
  3. Tons of features:
    • Over 1,500 unique features/options making it the Free and Open Source Web Application with the = most built-in features
    • Ideal for most use cases, such as Collaboration, Publishing,=20 Commerce, Social networking, Office productivity tools, E-learning, etc.
    • Has the breadth and depth to most likely address your specific needs as it has been developed through the collaborative work of=20 hundreds of contributors for over 10 years.
  4. Features are built-in
    • No need to research, choose, download and install additio= nal modules/extensions/plugins: There is no feature duplication. All the features are built-in,=20 collaboratively maintained by the community, so you avoid the pain of=20 abandoned modules/plugins/extensions.
    • Everything works with everything: The whole=20 community collaborates on the features instead of having=20 modules/extensions/plugins which may have incompatibilities. Turn=20 everything on and it will work. Try that with=20 modules/extensions/plugins! 3D":-)"
    • Quick timely upgrades: When a new version of Tik= i comes out, you can upgrade right away and all the features are available.
  5. Interoperable:
  6. Open Collaboration: If you need a new = feature, join the community and let's work together. If you are a developer= , check out How to get co= mmit access
  7. Innovation: For the latest and greatest and=20 quick access to new features, use the rapid release cycle, with 2 new=20 major releases per year. No other major web applications has had more=20 major releases since 2008. On average, developers update the code (with=20 new features and fixes) over a dozen times every day.
  8. Stability: For a super stable system with very f= ew changes: Use the Long Term Support (LTS) versions, which is supported fo= r 3.5 years.
  9. Easy install: You can use the 1-click installers= . All the features, languages, etc. are available in the basic install.
  10. Easy to configure : All features/options are act= ivated from the web-based control panel.
  11. Adaptable: By default, only a small number of basic, commonly-used features appear in the control panel. As your=20 needs grow, you can also display advanced and experimental=20 features/options.
  12. Easy upgrades: Upgrade from any past version to = any supported version in one step. (so you can upgrade from 2.x to 15.x)
    • No need to deal with diverse release dates of core software vs mod= ules/plugins/extensions
  13. No lock-in: Community supported, no si= ngle vendor.
  14. Free: free & open source software, licensed = as LGPL.


On Friday, 16 November 2012 01:25:53 UTC-5, iesk wrote:<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;bord= er-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">How about
- not using a tran= slation extension;
- setting the default (=3D menu display and so on) la= nguage to Lojban (logged in users may be able to change it for themselves);=
- letting everybody write in what language(s) (s)he prefers;
- using= tags ('categories'?) like 'eng', 'deu', 'jbo', ... whatever;
- preparing templates like 'This is a translation of [[bla]].' or 'Cf.=20 [[corresponding page]] in [[language]].' to be used where seen fit?

A bit= chaotic perhaps, but less demanding for users/editors, I believe.

-i= esk


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/lH= 2tnZE8HmAJ.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
------=_Part_659_20312259.1353055904894--