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Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 20:30:37 +0100
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Subject: Re: [lojban] CLL 1.1/ CLL 2.0. What is your opinion in the current situation?
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Am 18.11.2012 19:48, schrieb Robin Lee Powell:
> There are probably 20 people on this list with most or all of the
> requisite skills.  No idea which if them would take money for it;
> I've offered, and gotten no reply.

Is anyone currently working on it?

I can understand gleki's frustration, and I can also understand yours. I=20
don't really understand how so many people just prefer to watch=20
passively what happens. The BPFK has done a lot of great work already,=20
it's a shame it completely ran out of steam.

I don't think a single person alone can get much done, and I also doubt=20
that anyone would want a single person to make all their decisions for=20
them, especially in a language as Lojban, where we still have a=20
considerable amount of things that must be discussed before they can=20
become official. Don't people want to have a say in it? If yes, then=20
they must speak up, offer their help, get involved or else they must=20
accept that they can't complain about any decisions that are being made=20
without them.

What is the community's general opinion about the current state of=20
affairs? Are people generally happy to wait and stay in this gray area=20
between old and new Lojban?

We get lots of newbies on IRC and each one of them reminds us of the=20
fact that we don't have a single up-do-date, official description of our=20
language. We have to tell each time that they can learn from the CLL or=20
Lojban for Beginners, but that there are several outdated things in=20
those materials. Is it not in everyone's interest that people new to the=20
language get welcomed by proper learning materials?

There are countless cases of dicussions, both on this list and on IRC=20
about issues that some people believe are already solved but which=20
others believe are unsettled. There is lots of mutual disagreement and=20
even more confusion and obscurity because there is such a huge contrast=20
between old and new cmavo definitions, for instance.

This is just a report of the current situation the way I experience it.=20
Mainly, I'm confused about people's motivations.

I know that some years ago, some people agreed to make you (rlpowell)=20
the Benevolent Dictator, but what were they thinking? Did they just want=20
to free themselves of any responsibilities? A single person can in no=20
way do all of this without getting overwhelmed, and it seems that is=20
exactly what has happened.

What do people think about this now?

I'm not sure what the best solution is, or what step must be taken next.=20
All I'm seeing is that we're stuck. In my opinion, we (and by "we" I=20
mean everyone who wants to participate) should make sure that the=20
docbook project gets finished as soon as possible and then we must=20
immediately reactivate the BPFK.

If there are, as you say, 20 people on this list that could help with=20
the docbook project, then those people are urged to speak up. We need=20
you! If you haven't yet noticed, some of us are desperate enough to pay=20
you for this job.

For what it's worth, gleki is talking about CLL2.0 because he's doubting=20
that there will ever be a completed CLL1.1 at this rate and he considers=20
the CLL1.1 relatively useless because it would still be outdated, which=20
is true, of course. xorlo and dotside are by far not the only changes.

He and I were merely wondering how to move Lojban forward. One idea was=20
to give up on CLL1.1 and get straight to the actual CLL2.0 that=20
incorporates *every* change, not just xorlo and dotside. I told him that=20
this is not an easy thing to do because we must discuss these changes=20
together as a community, no single person has the right to make changes=20
without the approval of at least some notable Lojbanists.

When I told you about this idea some time ago, you made it very clear to=20
me that it would be a terrible idea to start already so I did nothing=20
about it. The only way for this to be a useful idea is to have enough=20
people of the old BPFK team coming together and finishing off the=20
remaining issues (of which there are of course quite a few). Then, to=20
create the actual CLL, all we need to do is get the old CLL on a wiki=20
and make changes to it accordingly. Everyone who understands what=20
they're doing can help at that point. Then once all the changes have=20
been worked in, a team will read over everything and double and triple=20
check. And probably some final dicussions will ensue, but the goal will=20
be near by then. That's my vision anyway.

I've probably written enough now; those are my=20
spontaneously-written-down but for-some-time-had thoughts, no more and=20
no less. If anyone has anything useful to say, please do so.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

--=20
pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo

do=E1=BB=8B m=C3=A8lbi mlen=C3=AC'u
    .i do c=C3=A0tlu ki'u
ma fe la x=C3=A0mpre =C5=ADu
    .i do t=C3=ACnsa c=C3=A0rmi
gi'e s=C3=ACrji se t=C3=A0rmi
    .i ta=E1=BB=8B bo pu c=C3=ACtka lo gr=C3=A0na ku


.


.

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