On Sun, Nov 18, 2012 at 12:30 PM, selpa'i <sel= adwa@gmx.de> wrote:

Am 18.11.2012 19:48, schrieb Robin Lee Powell:

There are probably 20 people on this list with most or all of the
requisite skills. =C2=A0No idea which if them would take money for it;
I've offered, and gotten no reply.

Is anyone currently working on it?

No. the last co= mmit was on Aug 12. I haven't personally been working on it, with the e= xcuse that I've got school stuff right now.
=C2=A0

I can understand gleki's frustration, and I can also understand yours. = I don't really understand how so many people just prefer to watch passi= vely what happens. The BPFK has done a lot of great work already, it's = a shame it completely ran out of steam.

I don't think the BPFK has run out of steam per s= e. I'll note that the BPFK mailing list is apparently dead, and it'= s members as a whole don't do much, but the /job/ of the BPFK is still = getting done, by those of us that care about whatever issue we're bring= ing up to discuss. Problems are being found, opinions are being floated, de= cisions are being made. Granted, this is all being done by people that aren= 't in the BPFK, but it is what the job of the BPFK is, as far as I am a= ware, at any rate.

At some point in the past, not long after Robin became the BDFL, a mess= age was sent out on the BPFK list which basically stated, "If you'= re reading this you /are/ the BPFK". Before that time, being on the li= st only meant you were privy to the discussions on it, not necessarily that= you were a member. After that message, it was clear- to me, at any rate- t= hat being a member of the BPFK required exactly one thing- wanting to do th= e job.

Speaking of, I think that anyone who wants to get issues solved and cha= nges made, should apply to join the BPFK list and start talking on it. The = entire reason for the existence of that list is to discuss issues and make = decisions.

Going off on a rant for a second here, I've noticed that pretty muc= h /none/ of the lojban lists is being used according to its purpose, with t= he exception of the newbie list and possibly the non-English ones to which = I am not a member.

To whit: The groups I am a member of and their intended purpose:
Lojban Beginners : The list for nintadni t= o ask questions and get help.
xedbig : A list for talking about anything, in Lojban= /only/. (Haven't seen anything from here in a long time.)
lojban : A list for talking about Lojbanic stuff (in English= or preferably Lojban), specifically culturally related, such as Lojbanic i= dioms for an example.
jbofanva : The list for translation projects. I.e.:= If you want to translate something (like, say, something in a theatre proj= ect) from language X to Lojban, this is place to do it.
BPFK : The list for discussing issues of the Lojba= n language, as in poorly defined words, missing concepts, and anything else= specific to the language itself. (This includes things like the CLL and jb= ovlaste)

It seems to me that all of these things, with the exception of beginner= questions, have all been mashed into the main Lojban list, which pretty mu= ch defeats the purpose of having any of the others and clutters up this one= with things that really belong somewhere else.

Just my two cents. I'd like to see these lists actually being used = for their intended purposes, and nothing more.

=C2=A0

I don't think a single person alone can get much done, and I also doubt= that anyone would want a single person to make all their decisions for the= m, especially in a language as Lojban, where we still have a considerable a= mount of things that must be discussed before they can become official. Don= 't people want to have a say in it? If yes, then they must speak up, of= fer their help, get involved or else they must accept that they can't c= omplain about any decisions that are being made without them.

What is the community's general opinion about the current state of affa= irs? Are people generally happy to wait and stay in this gray area between = old and new Lojban?

If I were to guess, I'd sa= y most people are to busy learning and using Lojban to spend any time on th= e decision making, issue discussion bits. I doubt anyone is "happy&quo= t; with the current state of affairs, but I think most people don't car= e enough to do anything about it, and it falls to those of us that do to, w= ell, do it.
=C2=A0

We get lots of newbies on IRC and each one of them reminds us of the fact t= hat we don't have a single up-do-date, official description of our lang= uage. We have to tell each time that they can learn from the CLL or Lojban = for Beginners, but that there are several outdated things in those material= s. Is it not in everyone's interest that people new to the language get= welcomed by proper learning materials?

Of course it is. That's why it's so important= that the CLL1.1 is finished. The big thing about CLL1.1 is that one of its= design parameters is making it easier to maintain and update than the orig= inal CLL, so that keeping it up to date with any changes to the language is= simple and relatively painless. The other major point is that it be easy t= o deliver in a variety of formats, so that the same source can be used to a= utomagically generate a web site, pdf, print book, etc. etc.
=C2=A0

There are countless cases of dicussions, both on this list and on IRC about= issues that some people believe are already solved but which others believ= e are unsettled. There is lots of mutual disagreement and even more confusi= on and obscurity because there is such a huge contrast between old and new = cmavo definitions, for instance.

This is just a report of the current situation the way I experience it. Mai= nly, I'm confused about people's motivations.

I know that some years ago, some people agreed to make you (rlpowell) the B= enevolent Dictator, but what were they thinking? Did they just want to free= themselves of any responsibilities? A single person can in no way do all o= f this without getting overwhelmed, and it seems that is exactly what has h= appened.

We didn't so much as agree to it as he decided to= do it and we let him. I remember his reasoning behind it being that the th= en-current state wherein the completely inactive BPFK wasn't doing it&#= 39;s job, and so he decided to take over their job just so that /something/= would get done. We let him do it mainly because the vast majority of us fe= lt the same way- the stuff needs done, someone needs to do it, this guy'= ;s willing to, so let him.
=C2=A0

What do people think about this now?

I'm still= in total support of this. It's very much like the U.S.A. system of gov= ernment in some respects, where those of us who give a crap about one issue= or another discuss it, debate it, argue about it, and so on until we'v= e figured out what we think is the best solution for it, and then Robin dec= ides whether or not to veto our solution. More often than not he agrees, an= d to the best of my knowledge he never exercises his decision-making power = without being fully informed.
=C2=A0

I'm not sure what the best solution is, or what step must be taken next= . All I'm seeing is that we're stuck. In my opinion, we (and by &qu= ot;we" I mean everyone who wants to participate) should make sure that= the docbook project gets finished as soon as possible and then we must imm= ediately reactivate the BPFK.

If there are, as you say, 20 people on this list that could help with the d= ocbook project, then those people are urged to speak up. We need you! If yo= u haven't yet noticed, some of us are desperate enough to pay you for t= his job.

For what it's worth, gleki is talking about CLL2.0 because he's dou= bting that there will ever be a completed CLL1.1 at this rate and he consid= ers the CLL1.1 relatively useless because it would still be outdated, which= is true, of course. xorlo and dotside are by far not the only changes.

My understanding of CLL1.1 isn't merely an update= of the CLL to include dotside and xorlo- although obviously it is supposed= to do that-=C2=A0 but an upgrade from 1.0 to a rolling distrubution style,= thus making any future changes much easier to make, meaning that there wil= l never be a need for a "CLL2.0", since once 1.1 is finished, any= needed changes to the content of the CLL will be git-style revisions, rath= er than a whole re-write of the entire book.
=C2=A0

He and I were merely wondering how to move Lojban forward. One idea was to = give up on CLL1.1 and get straight to the actual CLL2.0 that incorporates *= every* change, not just xorlo and dotside. I told him that this is not an e= asy thing to do because we must discuss these changes together as a communi= ty, no single person has the right to make changes without the approval of = at least some notable Lojbanists.

When I told you about this idea some time ago, you made it very clear to me= that it would be a terrible idea to start already so I did nothing about i= t. The only way for this to be a useful idea is to have enough people of th= e old BPFK team coming together and finishing off the remaining issues (of = which there are of course quite a few). Then, to create the actual CLL, all= we need to do is get the old CLL on a wiki and make changes to it accordin= gly. Everyone who understands what they're doing can help at that point= . Then once all the changes have been worked in, a team will read over ever= ything and double and triple check. And probably some final dicussions will= ensue, but the goal will be near by then. That's my vision anyway.

I don't think a wiki is the appropriate format fo= r the CLL. For one thing, changes should only be made to the CLL when they = have officially been decided on, which means only select few people should = have write access, not everyone and their dog. For another, a wiki isn'= t easily converted into other delivery modes, AFAIK, and the deisre is for = the CLL to be available as /at least/ a web site, a pdf, and a print book, = which is why CLL1.1 is being encoded in LaTeX and hosted in a git repositor= y: being in LaTeX makes it easy to print the same material in a large varie= ty of formats, including but not limited to the ones I've mentioned, an= d being in a git repo makes it very easy to submit changes to the CLL on an= as needed basis.
=C2=A0

I've probably written enough now; those are my spontaneously-written-do= wn but for-some-time-had thoughts, no more and no less. If anyone has anyth= ing useful to say, please do so.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

--
pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo

do=E1=BB=8B m=C3=A8lbi mlen=C3=AC'u
=C2=A0 =C2=A0.i do c=C3=A0tlu ki'u
ma fe la x=C3=A0mpre =C5=ADu
=C2=A0 =C2=A0.i do t=C3=ACnsa c=C3=A0rmi
gi'e s=C3=ACrji se t=C3=A0rmi
=C2=A0 =C2=A0.i ta=E1=BB=8B bo pu c=C3=ACtka lo gr=C3=A0na ku

.

.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@goo= glegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/grou= p/lojban?hl=3Den.