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[98.139.212.169]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id eb7si2290716qcb.3.2012.11.18.15.06.13 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 18 Nov 2012 15:06:13 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.212.169 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.139.212.169; Received: from [98.139.215.143] by nm10.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Nov 2012 23:06:13 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.125] by tm14.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Nov 2012 23:06:12 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1030.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Nov 2012 23:06:12 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 783210.58202.bm@omp1030.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 90395 invoked by uid 60001); 18 Nov 2012 23:06:12 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: tSyg4WoVM1msyHAhVNplFw8ci9XTcozqCrtz9eLT0H0dQwp KvpGp68AeFDKHM_akX8_eT_wSfCRf4dahCnxWXTLyZ8rbX5OqHQAMTdyPUDQ ooyVEBVRGaLx9jjidkcpWArFgiSlPICCAy1jpcBule0tnoBBYqnh84kEQjkk 4Vklhny3bV_8_cemMHU6uItYP6RwvdkYQ642hMR6E.8DahGgIz.fHHLjkrSE wNT0zrOsswKV_e1xLnoEJzPfQkTdNgL2WelDgJR7drY7DCT95esVQsYJahDa jUQa739C9fCjpqZ_vap4HOlSdbHrcfwsV0Va0_7Rr2nPTjOQkp7iIPa26ruj b5KhOde3USjguwAokNd1twa5MBZYKVbOmxGRT96woJGqA3xoa1BiSslgqkDg eVlumsWenHhM6uwSycqeQAUk55IVu74ITOyXmZA0fIVnJcuIgjhJSsvi8Rod BCiDm9xWonFwWR_9_LjrNT2ghwoncBHjDPS4x0MQsYO9Ad.Nmv9TW77xvpak fvP0e9XdD Received: from [99.92.108.194] by web184404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 18 Nov 2012 15:06:11 PST X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 001.001,CgoKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fClRpbWUgZm9yIHRoZSBvbmNlIGEgZGVjYWRlIEplcmVtaWFkPwoxLsKgIFRoZSBwZXJmZWN0IGlzIHRoZSBtb3J0YWwgZW5lbXkgb2YgdGhlIGdvb2QuwqAgQXJlIHlvdSBzdXJlIExvamJhbiBuZWVkcyBtb3JlIGZpeGluZyAob3IgZXZlbiBhbGwgaXQgc2VlbXMgdG8gaGF2ZSBnb3R0ZW4pP8KgIERvIHlvdSBoYXZlIGEgY2xlYXIgaWRlYSB3aGF0IExvamJhbiBpcyBzdXBwb3NlZCB0byBkbyBhbmQgaGF2ZSB5b3UgcmVhbGx5IHRyaWVkIHRvIGQBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.123.460 References: <9cc8cae2-03f8-48c6-85f0-c77cb5d49e35@googlegroups.com> <20121116164912.GH25271@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <02dd10e6-4b48-498b-9e34-9eaf37b3c3e7@googlegroups.com> <20121118131251.GG28469@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <2ed9a908-9401-4c1d-a1f6-1f1167265d04@googlegroups.com> <20121118184842.GH28469@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <50A9375D.5060404@gmx.de> <20121118213844.GD27366@sunflowerriver.org> Message-ID: <1353279971.90360.YahooMailNeo@web184404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 15:06:11 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] CLL 1.1/ CLL 2.0. What is your opinion in the current situation? To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: <20121118213844.GD27366@sunflowerriver.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.212.169 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-420974808-1936135057-1353279971=:90360" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ---420974808-1936135057-1353279971=:90360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ________________________________ Time for the once a decade Jeremiad? 1.=A0 The perfect is the mortal enemy of the good.=A0 Are you sure Lojban n= eeds more fixing (or even all it seems to have gotten)?=A0 Do you have a cl= ear idea what Lojban is supposed to do and have you really tried to do thes= e things with it?=A0 (A large part of what I see every day, aside from new = words, are reinventing the wheel without looking at the wheels already turn= ing. I know what lacks I see and know how to fix them fairly easily -- and = backward compatibly -- but the next problem gets in the way).=20 2.=A0 Who has the authority to make a reasonably final decision on what is = a real problem and what is a solution?=A0 A person?=A0 a group?=A0 the comm= unity (how polled?)?=A0 Will everybody (anybody) heed?=A0 Most proposed pro= blems gets solved (several times) fairly quickly, then forgotten until (and= even after) they come up again.=A0 So, where is the record of problems rai= sed and solutions accepted (note: the searchable archives have proven fairl= y ineffective for this)?=A0 And who maintains it, if anyone? 3.=A0 [Expanding on 1]=A0 While learning the mechanics of Lojban, no real e= ffort has been made to teach Lojbanism, the philosophy (as it were, and in = a good sense) behind the language.=A0 No one is taken in for long by the ol= der saw about testing the Whorf Hypothesis and the bit about thinking logic= ally doesn't last much longer (if as long, come to think of it).=A0 So peop= le bring all sorts of ideas or ideals to Lojban and, when it does immediate= ly deal with them, either quit in disgust or try to fix it, never noting th= at what they are out to do is nothing something Lojban was out to do.=A0 So= many problems are presented and taken seriously that are just beside the p= oint, but are indistinguishable in their fervor from central ones. 4.=A0 While anybody may have a good idea and no one should be censored, som= e people have track records that entitle their views to a more careful cons= ideration that Joe Newby's -- even though Joe may eventually turn out to be= right.=A0 This is a difficult balancing act but an essential one if progre= ss is not to be constantly diverted by pseudoproblems=A0 or wild-eyed (in r= etrospect) theories.=A0=20 5.=A0 Enough of Lojban is settled syntactically and semantically to do as a= functioning language for 99% of the purposes one might have in mind (much = more so than, say, English).=A0 More time might be spent on getting some de= cent teaching aids going at all level (not to disparage what there are, but= more and more diverse ones are needed).=A0 Prolix Lojban is difficult main= ly because of its vocabulary, which has traditionally been ram-fed, rather = than in the modern traditional way.=A0 But as Pimsleur and the like show, y= ou can get a long way with a hundred words and the basic grammar (both of w= hich are much simpler in Lojban than in French or -- God help us -- English= ).=A0 If you come to a problem, you can look it up or play around a bit -- = getting the message across even if the Lojban is a bit iffy.=A0 (Toki pona,= with 120 words, give or take, and a half-page grammar, has managed to say = just about everything anyone has tried to day so far and has managed to be understood at least as well as my French.) 6.=A0 Lojban probably isn/t your life, but work at it proportionally to you= r sense of commitment. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. ---420974808-1936135057-1353279971=:90360 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



Time for the once a decade Jeremiad?
1.  The perfect is the mortal enemy of the good.  A= re you sure Lojban needs more fixing (or even all it seems to have gotten)?=   Do you have a clear idea what Lojban is supposed to do and have you = really tried to do these things with it?  (A large part of what I see = every day, aside from new words, are reinventing the wheel without looking = at the wheels already turning. I know what lacks I see and know how to fix = them fairly easily -- and backward compatibly -- but the next problem gets in the way)= .

2.  Who has the authority to make a reasonably final decisio= n on what is a real problem and what is a solution?  A person?  a= group?  the community (how polled?)?  Will everybody (anybody) h= eed?  Most proposed problems gets solved (several times) fairly quickl= y, then forgotten until (and even after) they come up again.  So, wher= e is the record of problems raised and solutions accepted (note: the search= able archives have proven fairly ineffective for this)?  And who maint= ains it, if anyone?

3.  [Expanding on 1]  While learning t= he mechanics of Lojban, no real effort has been made to teach Lojbanism, th= e philosophy (as it were, and in a good sense) behind the language.  N= o one is taken in for long by the older saw about testing the Whorf Hypothe= sis and the bit about thinking logically doesn't last much longer (if as long, come to think of it).  So people bring all sorts of idea= s or ideals to Lojban and, when it does immediately deal with them, either = quit in disgust or try to fix it, never noting that what they are out to do= is nothing something Lojban was out to do.  So many problems are pres= ented and taken seriously that are just beside the point, but are indisting= uishable in their fervor from central ones.

4.  While anybody m= ay have a good idea and no one should be censored, some people have track r= ecords that entitle their views to a more careful consideration that Joe Ne= wby's -- even though Joe may eventually turn out to be right.  This is= a difficult balancing act but an essential one if progress is not to be co= nstantly diverted by pseudoproblems  or wild-eyed (in retrospect) theo= ries. 

5.  Enough of Lojban is settled syntactically and = semantically to do as a functioning language for 99% of the purposes one might have in mind (much more so than, say, English).  More time = might be spent on getting some decent teaching aids going at all level (not= to disparage what there are, but more and more diverse ones are needed).&n= bsp; Prolix Lojban is difficult mainly because of its vocabulary, which has= traditionally been ram-fed, rather than in the modern traditional way.&nbs= p; But as Pimsleur and the like show, you can get a long way with a hundred= words and the basic grammar (both of which are much simpler in Lojban than= in French or -- God help us -- English).  If you come to a problem, y= ou can look it up or play around a bit -- getting the message across even i= f the Lojban is a bit iffy.  (Toki pona, with 120 words, give or take,= and a half-page grammar, has managed to say just about everything anyone h= as tried to day so far and has managed to be understood at least as well as= my French.)

6.  Lojban probably isn/t your life, but work at it proportionally to your sense of commitment.
=

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