The chunking is done to make the whole task easier

by pla= cing small intermediate goals along the way.

As fo= r conclusions, I can say that:

* The organizationa= l problem of the wiki is not insurmountable,

since a singl= e person could go about this much work.

The pages are only= about twice the number of gismu, after all.

* Thi= s is not something new...but establishing workflows

for pr= ojects and proposals can go a great length in

informing la= tecomers and active members alike.

Without any meta info i= ndicating the status of a proposal,

I had to rely on the l= ast modified date of a page to

determine if it was relevan= t to the current baseline or not.

mu'o

<= div>
On Friday, November 16, 2012 8:13:44 AM UTC+9, .alyn.post. wrote:Interesting,

how do you interpret this? I think you divided the pages into
chunks and then went through each chunk to classify them into
these ~4 categories, but to what purpose? What conclusion is
there to draw?

-Alan

On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 03:00:36PM -0800, entot wrote:
> On Friday, November 16, 2012 6:40:04 AM UTC+9, vruxir= wrote:
>=20
> Here's what I've learned about the current Tik= i Wiki: it has 2,363
> articles. You can see a full list of them
> here: [1]http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki= -listpages.php
>=20
>=20
> Here's a rough categorization of around 1,200 of the = TWiki pages.
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=3D0AqPDUjCrM_cf= dDI5NzBIMzhCRHZJWGF2Tzl4R245N3c#gid=3D2
> It lists all the pages (2,357 of them) at the time of= the creation of the
> spreadsheet, which was one or two months ago. So it l= acks those 6 pages
> that were created since then.
> Pages in a language other than English or Lojban are = categorized as "wiki
> translation."
> mu'o
>=20
> On Friday, November 16, 2012 6:40:04 AM UTC+9, vruxir= wrote:
>=20
> Here's what I've learned about the current Tik= i Wiki: it has 2,363
> articles. You can see a full list of them
> here: [2]http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki= -listpages.php
> What I can't seem to do is get a full "dump" (= export) of the articles.
> It might be that the feature isn't turned on b= y the administrator.
> Instructions for doing so are
> here: [3]http://doc.tiki.org/Wiki+Config#Dumps
> There is a python script
> ([4]http://www.mediawiki.org/= wiki/Manual:TikiWiki_Conversion) which
> converts TikiWiki dumps to MediaWiki XML files= . It requires the dumped
> .tar file; also requires MySQL access to the T= iki server to "create an
> XML dump of the metadata for the Tiki images".= The instructions for
> doing so are on the page linked in this paragr= aph.
> Now that I've fooled with the MediaWiki transl= ate feature a little bit,
> I see that it is kind of finicky, and it defau= lts to English, and that,
> for example, "ralju_ckupau/en" means the same = thing as "ralju_ckupau"
> (except that the article title does not depend= exclusively on the URL in
> the "/en" version).
> One (possible) problem with the translation to= ol is that it seems like
> you have to define the structure of the page i= n English (or the default
> language) before you can create a translation.= You can divide the page
> into a number of "chunks" ("messages") to be t= ranslated, or you can
> probably make the whole page be a single "chun= k". How many "chunks" you
> define determines how well you can monitor the= quality of translations.
> A nastier problem is that the Tiki Wiki pages = are in many languages;
> some are all English, others all Lojban, other= s (such as discussion
> pages and self-introduction pages) may be in m= ore than one language. The
> primary language of a Tiki article is optional= ly marked, but usually it
> is not marked. So, when importing all those Ti= ki articles into a
> MediaWiki framework, they might all have to be= temporarily dumped into
> the default language namespace, then marked wi= th a tag saying "This
> article was uploaded from the old Tiki Wiki an= d is marked as being
> (Lojban/English/Whatever the default is). If t= he language of this
> article is different, please move it to the ap= propriate namespace."
> But moving the article to the appropriate lang= uage might not be
> straightforward... I'll have to mess around wi= th it and see. I'm still
> not clear on whether you can base an article i= n a language other than
> the default, and ensure that the original arti= cle (in whatever language)
> is the basis for other translations.
> mu'o mi'e vruxir
> On Thursday, November 15, 2012 3:19:58 PM UTC-= 5, entot wrote:
>=20
> I like the idea of adding a {{cleanup}}= template too.
> Now I'm leaning towards the option of i= mporting all pages.
> On Wednesday, November 14, 2012 3:03:00= AM UTC+9, .alyn.post. wrote:
>=20
> I'm 100% onboard with improving = the user experience of our wiki: I
> find the TWiki frustrating in th= at regard too. I'm not certain
> what
> tools mediawiki gives us to miti= gate this problem: it's a function
> of the content rather than the p= latform [snip]
>=20
> I argue that having a familiar-looking = interface itself is an
> improvement to the user experience. Als= o a better editing
> experience, which I think MediaWiki off= ers over TWiki,
> facilitates better content organization= .
> mu'o
> On Wednesday, November 14, 2012 4:47:05= AM UTC+9, .alyn.post. wrote:
>=20
> I like the suggestion of a {{cle= anup}} template. I've been working
> on general workflow templates ov= er at OpenCog:
>=20
> [5]http://wiki.opencog.org/w/C= uration
>=20
> And they are similar to this ide= a. You can mark a page as a
> {{stub}}, mark it as work in pro= gress ({{WIP}})* write it until
> it's a {{proposal}}, and then {{= withdraw}} it if it's a bad idea
> or tag it with a {{version}} if = it becomes a feature. Later work
> may cause it to be {{obsolete}} = and if you don't keep it in sync
> it might get {{out of date}}.
>=20
> These templates also take care t= o register the pages in the
> appropriate namespaces, so a cur= ator can see which pages are in
> which categories. I like w= orkflow processes like this because any
> effort has a 'long tail' of inco= mplete, partial, bad, and promising
> ideas that don't quite fit into = the existing structure of the wiki.
>=20
> mi'e .alyn.
>=20
> * =3D adding that is on my list,= it doesn't exist yet.
>=20
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 11:29:43= AM -0800, vruxir wrote:
> > I'm of the opi= nion that it would benefit a future Wiki if it
> has imported
> > ALL the conten= ts from the TWiki. If that can be done
> automatically, then
> > hopefully ther= e's also a way to automatically place a "Cleanup"
> box at the
> > top of each im= ported article, saying something to the effect
> of:
> > "This article = was imported from the old [6]lojban.org Tiki Wiki
> and may not
> > meet the conte= nt and style guidelines of this Wiki. Please see
> our
> > _content and s= tyle guidelines_ and clean up this article. If
> you feel that
> > the article is= named inappropriately, the article can be moved
> to a new
> > name. Do not r= emove this tag until the article is up to
> standards."
> > Then you'll wa= nt to have some content and style guidelines,
> probably
> > inspired by Wi= kipedia or other successful Wikis.
> > (When you move= an article to a new name, the old name becomes a
> redirect;
> > if you replace= the old name with a new article, you can insert
> tags at the
> > top of the art= icle with suggestions to visit the moved article.
> See, for
> > example, the t= op of the article
> [1][7]http://en.wikipedia.org/wi= ki/Defamation
> > )
> > If there is a = debate about what a word really MEANS, then I
> would think
> > the article ab= out that word needs to report the differing
> viewpoints
> > (including CLL= 's viewpoint) and what level of support the
> viewpoints
> > have. Then the= actual continuing debate over the meaning of the
> word could
> > go in the Disc= ussion tab, OR if it's possible to create another
> tab with a
> > more appropria= te name (e.g. "Grammar Debate"), do that and
> leave the
> > Discussion tab= for talking about the quality of the article
> itself.
> > By importing a= ll the TWiki content to the new Wiki (and marking
> them all
> > for "cleanup")= , you can safely redirect people from the TWiki
> to the new
> > Wiki if/when i= t has been demonstrated that the new Wiki is
> superior, and
> > you don't have= to worry about losing important discussions.
> > mu'o mi'e vrux= ir
> > On Tuesday, No= vember 13, 2012 12:16:51 PM UTC-5, .alyn.post.
> wrote:
> >
> > On Tue,= Nov 13, 2012 at 04:21:14AM -0800, la gleki wrote:
> > > &n= bsp; * We're making a fresh start, so why not keep it
> clean?
> >
> > To be c= ontrary a moment,
> >
> > I've pu= t a lot of work in writing and organizing TWiki pages.
> I'm
> > happy t= o have them migrated to mediawiki, but I'm
> more-or-less being
> > told th= at the work I've done on TWiki isn't valuable ("fresh
> start").
> > Any wor= k I would do on the new wiki would need to
> access/refer to/
> > modify = the pages I have worked on than are in TWiki.
> >
> > I'd lov= e to have them imported to Mediawiki, but as things
> stand I feel
> > like wo= rk I've put into the wiki is more-or-less being
> deleted (you can
> > call it= archiving if you want) and I'm wondering what the
> heck I would
> > be expe= cted to do with the new wiki when all the content I
> want to work
> > on is i= n the old wiki.
> >
> > mi'e .a= lyn.
> > --
> > .i ma'a= lo bradi cu penmi gi'e du
> >
> > --
> > You received t= his message because you are subscribed to the
> Google Groups
> > "lojban" group= .
> > To view this d= iscussion on the web visit
> > [2][8]https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/01evXYCxTw8J.
> > To post to thi= s group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe= from this group, send email to
> > lojban+un..= .@googlegroups.com.
> > For more optio= ns, visit this group at
> > [9]http://gro= ups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
> >
> > References
> >
> > Visible links
> > 1. [10]http://en.wi= kipedia.org/wiki/Defamation
> > 2. [11]https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/01evXYCxTw8J
>=20
> --
> .i ma'a lo bradi cu penmi gi'e d= u
>=20
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed = to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> [12]https://groups.google.com/d/msg/loj= ban/-/ePyF4rRxbBMJ.
> To post to this group, send email to loj...@goo= glegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den= .
>=20
> References
>=20
> Visible links
> 1. http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-listpages.ph= p
> 2. http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-listpages.ph= p
> 3. http://doc.tiki.org/Wiki+Config#Dumps
> 4. http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Man= ual:TikiWiki_Conversion
> 5. http://wiki.opencog.org/w/Curation
> 6. h= ttp://lojban.org/
> 7. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation
> 8. https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojb= an/-/01evXYCxTw8J
> 9. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3De= n
> 10. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation
> 11. https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/= 01evXYCxTw8J
> 12. https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/= ePyF4rRxbBMJ

--=20
.i ma'a lo bradi cu penmi gi'e du