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Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 21:58:37 +0000
Message-ID: <CAH6YDUV9zZsPDZ5PnsX3T-G+tKGnOK87j7cOpM=boTzQyB-bKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Please answer a book design opinion question (was Re: [lojban]
 CLL 1.1/ CLL 2.0. What is your opinion in the current situation?)
From: james riley <jimr1603@gmail.com>
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 Content preview:  I'm joining the group of "put Lojban on hold to do a PhD".
    I'm reading way too many textbooks at the moment. Page reference is best
   for an index. Of course, LaTeX can do either referencing. cmacis On 19 November
    2012 21:33, Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote: > Also
   please note that this is a solved problem, it's just that > solving it means
    docbook -> LaTeX -> PDF, and then also seperately > having a docbook -> HTML
    process; having docbook -> HTML and then > optionally HTML -> PDF would be
    an easier toolchain to setup, and > would mean that both versions have consistent
    visual setup (whether > you consider that last good or bad is certainly a
    matter of > opinion). > > -Robin > > On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 01:31:38PM -0800,
    Robin Lee Powell wrote: >> I was under the impression that you weren't doing
    Lojban anything >> anymore. >> >> The problem I have with producing a PDF
    with InDesign is what we >> would do to generate everything *else*. Also
   what happens if you >> disappear again; if I disappear, there are people here
    who could >> rebuild the docbook if they absolutely had to, but I doubt if
    anyone >> else here uses that tool. >> >> Having said all that, if you want
    me to give you a sample subset of >> the docbook and see what you come up
    with, and in particular see >> what sorts of files get generated if you try
    to export it back into >> xml or whatever, we could certainly give that a
    shot. >> >> As to your points, the choices are "page numbered index" and
   "index >> that cannot refer to anything that relates to pages in any way at
    >> all, so it can say section numbers but not paragraph numbers on a >> page,
    but section number + paragraph within that section might be >> possible".
    >> >> It's also worth noting that this problem is already solved, it's >>
    just a bit of a pain. >> >> -Robin >> >> On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 04:19:46PM
    -0500, Matt Arnold wrote: >> > My preferences are in the following order,
    from best to worst: >> > >> > 1. A page index. >> > 2. An index that refers
    to section and paragraph numbers, if every >> > page has a section number,
    and every paragraph in the book is >> > numbered. I have used reference materials
    which worked that way, and >> > they were successful. Such an [...] 
 
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I'm joining the group of "put Lojban on hold to do a PhD". I'm reading
way too many textbooks at the moment. Page reference is best for an
index. Of course, LaTeX can do either referencing.

cmacis

On 19 November 2012 21:33, Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
> Also please note that this is a solved problem, it's just that
> solving it means docbook -> LaTeX -> PDF, and then also seperately
> having a docbook -> HTML process; having docbook -> HTML and then
> optionally HTML -> PDF would be an easier toolchain to setup, and
> would mean that both versions have consistent visual setup (whether
> you consider that last good or bad is certainly a matter of
> opinion).
>
> -Robin
>
> On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 01:31:38PM -0800, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
>> I was under the impression that you weren't doing Lojban anything
>> anymore.
>>
>> The problem I have with producing a PDF with InDesign is what we
>> would do to generate everything *else*.  Also what happens if you
>> disappear again; if I disappear, there are people here who could
>> rebuild the docbook if they absolutely had to, but I doubt if anyone
>> else here uses that tool.
>>
>> Having said all that, if you want me to give you a sample subset of
>> the docbook and see what you come up with, and in particular see
>> what sorts of files get generated if you try to export it back into
>> xml or whatever, we could certainly give that a shot.
>>
>> As to your points, the choices are "page numbered index" and "index
>> that cannot refer to anything that relates to pages in any way at
>> all, so it can say section numbers but not paragraph numbers on a
>> page, but section number + paragraph within that section might be
>> possible".
>>
>> It's also worth noting that this problem is already solved, it's
>> just a bit of a pain.
>>
>> -Robin
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 04:19:46PM -0500, Matt Arnold wrote:
>> > My preferences are in the following order, from best to worst:
>> >
>> > 1. A page index.
>> > 2. An index that refers to section and paragraph numbers, if every
>> > page has a section number, and every paragraph in the book is
>> > numbered. I have used reference materials which worked that way, and
>> > they were successful. Such an index does not change if typsetting or
>> > layout were to re-flow text to different pages.
>> > 3. No index.
>> > 4. No CLL 2.0.
>> >
>> > Auto-indexing a book from a source file in XML is a feature of Adobe
>> > InDesign. I would love to use that to produce CLL 2.0, but have met
>> > resistance to it in the past.
>> >
>> > -Eppcott
>> >
>> > On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > +1
>> > >
>> > > Though, it's a lot easier for me to say "Yes, amazing index is essential"
>> > > when I'm not the one doing the work.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 3:43 PM, .alyn.post.
>> > > <alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 12:39:57PM -0800, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
>> > >> > On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 08:31:37PM +0000, And Rosta wrote:
>> > >> > > Robin Lee Powell, On 19/11/2012 20:26:
>> > >> > > >On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 08:19:45PM +0000, And Rosta wrote:
>> > >> > > >>Robin Lee Powell, On 19/11/2012 18:52:
>> > >> > > >>>Oh, and that the PDF needs to be something we can send to a
>> > >> > > >>>printer to make a book out of, so (in particular) cross
>> > >> > > >>>references need to be page number based (which is why we can't
>> > >> > > >>>just print the HTML, or anything converted from it; I haven't
>> > >> > > >>>found anything that produces page number xrefs from html, much
>> > >> > > >>>as I'd *LOVE* to solve the whole thing that way).
>> > >> > > >>
>> > >> > > >>If the book's subsections are sufficiently short, wouldn't
>> > >> > > >>cross-references to subsections, rather than to page numbers,
>> > >> > > >>suffice? Many academic books do work thus.
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > >Well, you've got a copy of the red book, what do you think? :)
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > >Can you show me such a book?  I've never seen that.  Maybe
>> > >> > > >something on Amazon where the "look in this book" is working?
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > I haven't time to do that. I'd just suggest that since this page
>> > >> > > number issue is an impediment to progress, you set it aside. The
>> > >> > > extra progress you could make by setting it aside outweighs any
>> > >> > > benefit of specific page refs.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > OK.  Can other people weigh in here?  If you were reading a
>> > >> > technical book that had no page number based index, wouldn't that
>> > >> > shock you?  Wouldn't you be all like "what a pack of losers"?  I
>> > >> > think I would.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > I've been assuming that that's just totally unacceptable, but I'm
>> > >> > willing to be persuaded otherwise.
>> > >> >
>> > >>
>> > >> I feel roughly aligned with you.  If we publish a book describing a
>> > >> logical language and we can't be bothered to properly
>> > >> cross-reference it I'd wonder about us more than I already do.
>> > >>
>> > >> Honestly, A good index is worth doing by hand, if that's what it
>> > >> takes.
>> > >>
>> > >> mi'e .alyn.
>> > >> --
>> > >> .i ma'a lo bradi cu penmi gi'e du
>> > >>
>> > >> --
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>>
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>
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