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Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 14:32:30 -0500
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Subject: Re: Please answer a book design opinion question (was Re: [lojban]
 CLL 1.1/ CLL 2.0. What is your opinion in the current situation?)
From: Matt Arnold <matt.mattarn@gmail.com>
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InDesign imports XML and formats it automatically based on style
sheets. My thought was that if I were to be unavailable to make
revisions, someone else could probably take the source XML and format
it the same way they were already going to if the InDesign version had
never existed to begin with.

I understand that there are reasons not to use InDesign, and will
defer to your preference and expertise.

Instead of this:

lo              Section 1.1 Introduction, Section 2.3 Articles,
Section 3.4 Bob, Section 7.8 Frobnitz
klama           Section 1.1 Introduction, Section 18.12 Too Many Sections
abstractions    Section 2.3 Articles, Section 5.7 Qux, Section 12.18 Backwards

... it would be preferable to do this:

lo              1.1, 2.3, 3.4, 7.8
klama           1.1, 18.12
abstractions    2.3, 5.7, 12.18

-Eppcott

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 4:31 PM, Robin Lee Powell
<rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
> I was under the impression that you weren't doing Lojban anything
> anymore.
>
> The problem I have with producing a PDF with InDesign is what we
> would do to generate everything *else*.  Also what happens if you
> disappear again; if I disappear, there are people here who could
> rebuild the docbook if they absolutely had to, but I doubt if anyone
> else here uses that tool.
>
> Having said all that, if you want me to give you a sample subset of
> the docbook and see what you come up with, and in particular see
> what sorts of files get generated if you try to export it back into
> xml or whatever, we could certainly give that a shot.
>
> As to your points, the choices are "page numbered index" and "index
> that cannot refer to anything that relates to pages in any way at
> all, so it can say section numbers but not paragraph numbers on a
> page, but section number + paragraph within that section might be
> possible".
>
> It's also worth noting that this problem is already solved, it's
> just a bit of a pain.
>
> -Robin
>
> On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 04:19:46PM -0500, Matt Arnold wrote:
>> My preferences are in the following order, from best to worst:
>>
>> 1. A page index.
>> 2. An index that refers to section and paragraph numbers, if every
>> page has a section number, and every paragraph in the book is
>> numbered. I have used reference materials which worked that way, and
>> they were successful. Such an index does not change if typsetting or
>> layout were to re-flow text to different pages.
>> 3. No index.
>> 4. No CLL 2.0.
>>
>> Auto-indexing a book from a source file in XML is a feature of Adobe
>> InDesign. I would love to use that to produce CLL 2.0, but have met
>> resistance to it in the past.
>>
>> -Eppcott
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > +1
>> >
>> > Though, it's a lot easier for me to say "Yes, amazing index is essential"
>> > when I'm not the one doing the work.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 3:43 PM, .alyn.post.
>> > <alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 12:39:57PM -0800, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
>> >> > On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 08:31:37PM +0000, And Rosta wrote:
>> >> > > Robin Lee Powell, On 19/11/2012 20:26:
>> >> > > >On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 08:19:45PM +0000, And Rosta wrote:
>> >> > > >>Robin Lee Powell, On 19/11/2012 18:52:
>> >> > > >>>Oh, and that the PDF needs to be something we can send to a
>> >> > > >>>printer to make a book out of, so (in particular) cross
>> >> > > >>>references need to be page number based (which is why we can't
>> >> > > >>>just print the HTML, or anything converted from it; I haven't
>> >> > > >>>found anything that produces page number xrefs from html, much
>> >> > > >>>as I'd *LOVE* to solve the whole thing that way).
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >>If the book's subsections are sufficiently short, wouldn't
>> >> > > >>cross-references to subsections, rather than to page numbers,
>> >> > > >>suffice? Many academic books do work thus.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >Well, you've got a copy of the red book, what do you think? :)
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >Can you show me such a book?  I've never seen that.  Maybe
>> >> > > >something on Amazon where the "look in this book" is working?
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I haven't time to do that. I'd just suggest that since this page
>> >> > > number issue is an impediment to progress, you set it aside. The
>> >> > > extra progress you could make by setting it aside outweighs any
>> >> > > benefit of specific page refs.
>> >> >
>> >> > OK.  Can other people weigh in here?  If you were reading a
>> >> > technical book that had no page number based index, wouldn't that
>> >> > shock you?  Wouldn't you be all like "what a pack of losers"?  I
>> >> > think I would.
>> >> >
>> >> > I've been assuming that that's just totally unacceptable, but I'm
>> >> > willing to be persuaded otherwise.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> I feel roughly aligned with you.  If we publish a book describing a
>> >> logical language and we can't be bothered to properly
>> >> cross-reference it I'd wonder about us more than I already do.
>> >>
>> >> Honestly, A good index is worth doing by hand, if that's what it
>> >> takes.
>> >>
>> >> mi'e .alyn.
>> >> --
>> >> .i ma'a lo bradi cu penmi gi'e du
>> >>
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>
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