Received: from mail-ee0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]:53586) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TbSCz-0003T4-7s; Thu, 22 Nov 2012 00:32:45 -0800 Received: by mail-ee0-f61.google.com with SMTP id b57sf2716133eek.16 for ; Thu, 22 Nov 2012 00:32:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:subject:references:from:x-mailer :in-reply-to:message-id:date:to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=///rpsKkYd6An9kK94N4ppCEXOZjLEkQKFAM9YxoyFM=; b=gaWsCCAoexuC3/EFYtuz6c29EIJqwEXU3LvEkKxgF/T/Wzswd21WKBFc3HNO53bFWb NCf9DAaLvrnCbGINiYVc67QbghFLd2BYgwZPbVZoYGg4HefDEDJfNifMo9ICvbySp2yq eeofe+BF/uc96sDFPMuEVYjL5teoamh0PSCSxrNpQ+wYpVQdEFEpuUQPOBUFgyQgbhK/ 1V8Pj9oo0a2uhaN1aB9ptcELca+gTS35+EgF1df3eUmozV4AxBfRbkJuGeHzr9BrSKUc ygVw8xCxUH/x6pvxJKwG0eVnVm0IUYgm7NG0iq0wKIuuDE/ewCt95eHy2PkJWJv4ieS2 revg== Received: by 10.180.86.9 with SMTP id l9mr331814wiz.11.1353573133044; Thu, 22 Nov 2012 00:32:13 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.100.41 with SMTP id ev9ls2504164wib.27.canary; Thu, 22 Nov 2012 00:32:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.204.153.206 with SMTP id l14mr1208011bkw.5.1353573132365; Thu, 22 Nov 2012 00:32:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.204.153.206 with SMTP id l14mr1208010bkw.5.1353573132338; Thu, 22 Nov 2012 00:32:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-la0-f53.google.com (mail-la0-f53.google.com [209.85.215.53]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l1si193659bka.2.2012.11.22.00.32.12 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 22 Nov 2012 00:32:12 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of so.cool.ogi@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.53; Received: by mail-la0-f53.google.com with SMTP id w12so6517603lag.12 for ; Thu, 22 Nov 2012 00:32:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.152.124.111 with SMTP id mh15mr20181931lab.20.1353573131938; Thu, 22 Nov 2012 00:32:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.29.124.198] ([94.234.170.219]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z9sm1134061lby.8.2012.11.22.00.32.10 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 22 Nov 2012 00:32:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [lojban] Novel written system that parallels the logic of Lojban? References: <291e8942-2309-4343-b7ff-a56ac60c320a@googlegroups.com> From: Sebastian X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (10A403) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <95FC995C-2791-4480-83DB-B3908775915A@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 09:32:06 +0100 To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Original-Sender: so.cool.ogi@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of so.cool.ogi@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.53 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=so.cool.ogi@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-D7C686C3-8938-4DA3-9F46-8E98DEAC1992 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --Apple-Mail-D7C686C3-8938-4DA3-9F46-8E98DEAC1992 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Latin orthography has the advantage of many people in the world know about = it, it's being used a lot in scientific contexts, it's compatible with ASCI= I, etc. Negative: Latin letters are not cultural neutral, they've got history and a= re a part of West's cultural "colonialism" or what you would to call it. There is no ortography associated with natural language that is cultural ne= utral, therefore I think it's a great idea to construct a completely new se= t of characters, with no history (yet). When constructing this character set you may, or may not, be inspired by ex= isting writing systems like hangul, japanese, devanagari, arabic etc etc., = but I think the result should be something completely different. Tengwar has the advantage of not being so real-world cultural biased, but i= t's still not uniquely associated with lojban. I think lojban shouldn't bor= row cultural signs from other, fictional or non-fictional, but have their o= wn lojbanic (global) cultural system. Next question is: phonemic or ideograms? The advantage of phonemic characte= rs is they're not so many. I like=20 Skickat fr=E5n min iPhone 21 nov 2012 kl. 19:15 skrev MorphemeAddict : > How does the current standard orthography not meet the aims of your propo= sal?=20 >=20 > stevo >=20 > On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 6:43 PM, charlicopter@gmail.com wrote: >> Greetings everyone,=20 >> This is my first time visiting the forums... >> My curiosity currently lies in the possibility of a written system that = could be developed around Lojban that respects its logical nature.=20 >> As far as I can tell in my rudimentary beginnings as a student of Lojban= : The language is designed around phonetics in a similar way to Japanese. b= y that, I mean that the language uses predictable and consistent combinatio= ns of vowel and consonant phonetics in the structure of the constituent wor= d-forms. >>=20 >> Preposition: In written Lojban, what if you used a character system simi= lar to Japanese hiragana and katakana: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katakan= a & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiragana=20 >> Japanese Katakana and Hiragana are based on characters which hail from a= ncient cultural influences, but what if you started fresh and designed char= acters around some kind of logical analysis of Lojbanic structure, syntax, = logic, etc. such that the characters are themselves always internally consi= stent and logical? Pictorally speaking, you have many variables to draw upo= n: stroke length, angle, curvature, dots, rotation/orientation, etc. certai= nly as many variables as are needed to accurately represent the phonetics, = syntax etc. of the language. In this way, entire gismu might have a chance = of being reduced to single characters which LOOK and FLOW as logically as t= hey behave. >>=20 >> Thoughts?=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s "lojban" group. >> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg= /lojban/-/RSMpezF6avUJ. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googleg= roups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/loj= ban?hl=3Den. >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --Apple-Mail-D7C686C3-8938-4DA3-9F46-8E98DEAC1992 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Latin o= rthography has the advantage of many people in the world know about it, it'= s being used a lot in scientific contexts, it's compatible with ASCII, etc.=

Negative: Latin letters are not cultural neutral,= they've got history and are a part of West's cultural "colonialism" or wha= t you would to call it.

There is no ortography ass= ociated with natural language that is cultural neutral, therefore I think i= t's a great idea to construct a completely new set of characters, with no h= istory (yet).

When constructing this character set= you may, or may not, be inspired by existing writing systems like hangul, = japanese, devanagari, arabic etc etc., but I think the result should be som= ething completely different.

Tengwar has the advan= tage of not being so real-world cultural biased, but it's still not uniquel= y associated with lojban. I think lojban shouldn't borrow cultural signs fr= om other, fictional or non-fictional, but have their own lojbanic (global) = cultural system.

Next question is: phonemic or ide= ograms? The advantage of phonemic characters is they're not so many. I like=  


Skickat fr=E5n min iPhone

21 nov 201= 2 kl. 19:15 skrev MorphemeAddict <l= ytlesw@gmail.com>:

How d= oes the current standard orthography not meet the aims of your proposal?&nb= sp;

stevo

On Tue, Nov = 20, 2012 at 6:43 PM, charlicopter= @gmail.com <lanternsmith@gmail.com> wrote:
Greetings everyone,
This is my first tim= e visiting the forums...
My curiosity currently lies in the possibility = of a written system that could be developed around Lojban that respects its= logical nature.
As far as I can tell in my rudimentary beginnings as a student of Lojban: T= he language is designed around phonetics in a similar way to Japanese. by t= hat, I mean that the language uses predictable and consistent combinations = of vowel and consonant phonetics in the structure of the constituent word-f= orms.

Preposition: In written Lojban, what if you used a character system sim= ilar to Japanese hiragana and katakana: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katakana&= nbsp; &  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiragana
Japanese Katakana and Hiragana are based on characters which hail from anci= ent cultural influences, but what if you started fresh and designed charact= ers around some kind of logical analysis of Lojbanic structure, syntax, log= ic, etc. such that the characters are themselves always internally consiste= nt and logical? Pictorally speaking, you have many variables to draw upon: = stroke length, angle, curvature, dots, rotation/orientation, etc. certainly= as many variables as are needed to accurately represent the phonetics, syn= tax etc. of the language. In this way, entire gismu might have a chance of = being reduced to single characters which LOOK and FLOW as logically as they= behave.

Thoughts?


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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.

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