Received: from mail-wi0-f189.google.com ([209.85.212.189]:39786) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TbSau-0003dL-In; Thu, 22 Nov 2012 00:57:22 -0800 Received: by mail-wi0-f189.google.com with SMTP id hj13sf242664wib.16 for ; Thu, 22 Nov 2012 00:57:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:subject:references:from:x-mailer :in-reply-to:message-id:date:to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=7O175soX117qOVol1d+t+mfl7+BnBphAc27oI4sgn7Q=; b=bkY5KWwshXlxkpecoy8+ly5dPq71uacRmoRibzvnIoYLcWpyHoCZa4d0rri0QeWLkM e1z7tuv/4xbJ4F3hzfXhb1dzS5LQvLhssQEh64x6HUPCbVrwpyrqvKx2ZdD4/jPkEHlT yiWRtoXXJOFOKNN1IcMBwhtVpwIKaQ9X1Z8JTTc9ta312QsFamiN2M1Qre9SWHKicmzW +X3m9IgkBaaCDbZikfJkDy7+A9n/VErXXMizmFvWz5YkySIjZR1i8Txy0DBIIGMHsoFw y7+eWXN3xtxqemDWgkwo8J1ZOh/HXpM5sWvcN28ibia5DVS9Uh8bQOExtebeB+vBwMUO GUYQ== Received: by 10.180.100.99 with SMTP id ex3mr338593wib.14.1353574624822; Thu, 22 Nov 2012 00:57:04 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.181.13.100 with SMTP id ex4ls2745717wid.0.gmail; Thu, 22 Nov 2012 00:57:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.204.146.25 with SMTP id f25mr864004bkv.1.1353574624151; Thu, 22 Nov 2012 00:57:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.204.146.25 with SMTP id f25mr864003bkv.1.1353574624117; Thu, 22 Nov 2012 00:57:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-la0-f49.google.com (mail-la0-f49.google.com [209.85.215.49]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id v18si198398bkw.1.2012.11.22.00.57.03 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 22 Nov 2012 00:57:04 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of so.cool.ogi@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.49 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.49; Received: by mail-la0-f49.google.com with SMTP id r15so5787119lag.36 for ; Thu, 22 Nov 2012 00:57:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.152.108.37 with SMTP id hh5mr20449699lab.52.1353574623814; Thu, 22 Nov 2012 00:57:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.29.124.198] (c-5eeaaadb-74736162.cust.telenor.se. [94.234.170.219]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j10sm1136053lbh.17.2012.11.22.00.57.01 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 22 Nov 2012 00:57:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [lojban] Novel written system that parallels the logic of Lojban? References: <291e8942-2309-4343-b7ff-a56ac60c320a@googlegroups.com> <95FC995C-2791-4480-83DB-B3908775915A@gmail.com> From: Sebastian X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (10A403) In-Reply-To: <95FC995C-2791-4480-83DB-B3908775915A@gmail.com> Message-Id: Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 09:56:58 +0100 To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Original-Sender: so.cool.ogi@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of so.cool.ogi@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.49 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=so.cool.ogi@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-555D8E99-0ACB-445D-B70F-54AE2F30A3CA Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --Apple-Mail-555D8E99-0ACB-445D-B70F-54AE2F30A3CA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ...Next question is: phonemic or ideograms? The advantage of phonemic chara= cters is they're not so many. I like "larlermorna", it looks great and seem= s to be pretty easy to use, but it hasn't the systematically phonetic syste= m as tengwar has. Ideograms does not take up as much textual space as phonemes does and they = might look cool (I think the visual impression really matters). And it's pr= obably possible to construct them intelligently, as charlicopter suggested = to represent information about lojbanic structure (arity (place structure),= abstractions, descriptors, modifiers etc), by means of "stroke length, ang= le, curvature, dots, rotation/orientation, etc." Toki pona got their own set of hieroglyphs, so why not lojban? Negative: There are ba'e a lot of them, which need to be constructed (toki = pona got 123, lojban need at least 1800 + complex lujvo forms; and what abo= ut fu'ivla?). Phonetic information may get lost in a ideogram system, if no= t each character also contain all the phonemes of each word, but then the c= haracters would be fairly complex. mu'omi'e jongausib Skickat fr=E5n min iPhone 22 nov 2012 kl. 09:32 skrev Sebastian : > Latin orthography has the advantage of many people in the world know abou= t it, it's being used a lot in scientific contexts, it's compatible with AS= CII, etc. >=20 > Negative: Latin letters are not cultural neutral, they've got history and= are a part of West's cultural "colonialism" or what you would to call it. >=20 > There is no ortography associated with natural language that is cultural = neutral, therefore I think it's a great idea to construct a completely new = set of characters, with no history (yet). >=20 > When constructing this character set you may, or may not, be inspired by = existing writing systems like hangul, japanese, devanagari, arabic etc etc.= , but I think the result should be something completely different. >=20 > Tengwar has the advantage of not being so real-world cultural biased, but= it's still not uniquely associated with lojban. I think lojban shouldn't b= orrow cultural signs from other, fictional or non-fictional, but have their= own lojbanic (global) cultural system. >=20 > Next question is: phonemic or ideograms? The advantage of phonemic charac= ters is they're not so many. I like=20 >=20 >=20 > Skickat fr=E5n min iPhone >=20 > 21 nov 2012 kl. 19:15 skrev MorphemeAddict : >=20 >> How does the current standard orthography not meet the aims of your prop= osal?=20 >>=20 >> stevo >>=20 >> On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 6:43 PM, charlicopter@gmail.com wrote: >>> Greetings everyone,=20 >>> This is my first time visiting the forums... >>> My curiosity currently lies in the possibility of a written system that= could be developed around Lojban that respects its logical nature.=20 >>> As far as I can tell in my rudimentary beginnings as a student of Lojba= n: The language is designed around phonetics in a similar way to Japanese. = by that, I mean that the language uses predictable and consistent combinati= ons of vowel and consonant phonetics in the structure of the constituent wo= rd-forms. >>>=20 >>> Preposition: In written Lojban, what if you used a character system sim= ilar to Japanese hiragana and katakana: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kataka= na & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiragana=20 >>> Japanese Katakana and Hiragana are based on characters which hail from = ancient cultural influences, but what if you started fresh and designed cha= racters around some kind of logical analysis of Lojbanic structure, syntax,= logic, etc. such that the characters are themselves always internally cons= istent and logical? Pictorally speaking, you have many variables to draw up= on: stroke length, angle, curvature, dots, rotation/orientation, etc. certa= inly as many variables as are needed to accurately represent the phonetics,= syntax etc. of the language. In this way, entire gismu might have a chance= of being reduced to single characters which LOOK and FLOW as logically as = they behave. >>>=20 >>> Thoughts?=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps "lojban" group. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/ms= g/lojban/-/RSMpezF6avUJ. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@google= groups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lo= jban?hl=3Den. >>=20 >> --=20 >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googleg= roups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/loj= ban?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --Apple-Mail-555D8E99-0ACB-445D-B70F-54AE2F30A3CA Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
...Next question is: phonemic or ideogr= ams? The advantage of phonemic characters is they're not so many. I like "l= arlermorna", it looks great and seems to be pretty easy to use, but it hasn= 't the systematically phonetic system as tengwar has.

Ideograms does not take up as much t= extual space as phonemes does and they might look cool (I think the visual = impression really matters). And it's probably possible to construct them in= telligently, as charlicopter suggested to represent info= rmation about lojbanic structure (arity (place structure), abstractions, de= scriptors, modifiers etc), by means of "stroke length, angle, curvature, do= ts, rotation/orientation, etc."
Toki pona got their= own set of hieroglyphs, so why not lojban?


Negative: There are ba'e a lot = of them, which need to be constructed (toki pona got 123, lojban need at le= ast 1800 + complex lujvo forms; and what about fu'ivla?). Phonetic informat= ion may get lost in a ideogram system, if not each character also contain a= ll the phonemes of each word, but then the characters would be fairly compl= ex.

mu'omi'e jo= ngausib
Sk= ickat fr=E5n min iPhone

22 nov 2012 kl. 09:32 skrev Sebastian <so.cool.ogi@gmail.com>:

Latin orthography has the advantage of many people in th= e world know about it, it's being used a lot in scientific contexts, it's c= ompatible with ASCII, etc.

Negative: Latin letters= are not cultural neutral, they've got history and are a part of West's cul= tural "colonialism" or what you would to call it.

= There is no ortography associated with natural language that is cultural ne= utral, therefore I think it's a great idea to construct a completely new se= t of characters, with no history (yet).

When const= ructing this character set you may, or may not, be inspired by existing wri= ting systems like hangul, japanese, devanagari, arabic etc etc., but I thin= k the result should be something completely different.

=
Tengwar has the advantage of not being so real-world cultural biased, = but it's still not uniquely associated with lojban. I think lojban shouldn'= t borrow cultural signs from other, fictional or non-fictional, but have th= eir own lojbanic (global) cultural system.

Next qu= estion is: phonemic or ideograms? The advantage of phonemic characters is t= hey're not so many. I like 


Skickat fr=E5n min iPhon= e

21 nov 2012 kl. 19:15 skrev MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com>:

How does the current standard orthography not meet the= aims of your proposal? 

stevo

On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 6:43 PM, charlicopter@gmail.com <lanternsmith@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
Greetings everyone,
This is my first tim= e visiting the forums...
My curiosity currently lies in the possibility = of a written system that could be developed around Lojban that respects its= logical nature.
As far as I can tell in my rudimentary beginnings as a student of Lojban: T= he language is designed around phonetics in a similar way to Japanese. by t= hat, I mean that the language uses predictable and consistent combinations = of vowel and consonant phonetics in the structure of the constituent word-f= orms.

Preposition: In written Lojban, what if you used a character system sim= ilar to Japanese hiragana and katakana: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katakana&= nbsp; &  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiragana
Japanese Katakana and Hiragana are based on characters which hail from anci= ent cultural influences, but what if you started fresh and designed charact= ers around some kind of logical analysis of Lojbanic structure, syntax, log= ic, etc. such that the characters are themselves always internally consiste= nt and logical? Pictorally speaking, you have many variables to draw upon: = stroke length, angle, curvature, dots, rotation/orientation, etc. certainly= as many variables as are needed to accurately represent the phonetics, syn= tax etc. of the language. In this way, entire gismu might have a chance of = being reduced to single characters which LOOK and FLOW as logically as they= behave.

Thoughts?


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To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.

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