=A0 "euro-American monoculture"? =A0Interesting,= interesting. =A0So you think that not only is the USA =A0like Canada, but = =A0is like England is like France is like Germany is like Spain, is like Sw= eden is like Finland is like Romania is like Solvakia? =A0Hmm... =A0I have = several thousand years of wars during which time they were using Latin-deri= ved alphabets that says you are just wrong. =A0 =A0Now, granted, they were = using that BECAUSE of conquest, and many other cultures who didn't have= written languages (aboriginal Oceanians and Pacific Islanders, native Amer= ican tribes, many African cultures, Vietnamese) had it spread to them by co= lonialism (either actual, or "cultural and economic), but that doesn&#= 39;t mean their cultures are any less diverse. =A0And yes, some cultures wh= o did have their own writing system came to =A0use it informally (i.e.Japan= ese romaji or Pinyin) due to a combination of ease in use with telegraphic = systems. =A0But please don't confuse the Roman alphabet with English. = =A0That's a separate issue. Lojban isn't American, and it isn't= European. And the fact that we happen to use a writing system that's d= erived from the same writing system that is in use by billions of people in= all parts of the globe speaking (writing) hundreds, if not thousands of la= nguages is enough cultural neutrality for me.

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa

On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Sebastian <so.cool.= ogi@gmail.com> wrote:

Well, I agree that it= 's comfortable that most people are familiar with latin characters. But= that simply mirrors the fact that Europe/US had been very succesful in spr= eading their ideas and culture to the rest of the world pu ze'ucaku by = means of their greater economic, political and cultural dominance (=3D cult= ural and economic colonialism). McDonalds, CocaCola, Apple and Hollywood-pr= oduced movies are integrated in an extremely wide range of cultures too now= adays. Lojbanic culture has the potential of becoming something else than a= n extension of the euro-american global monoculture I think, to create some= thing of their own. The reason why lojbanists doesn't critize latin scr= ipt on these grounds might be something for a sociologist to analyze. But u= ntil we've got a succesful ortography, that most lojbanists could agree= on, I think latin characters will do just fine.

mu'omi'e jongausib=A0

= So I don't necessarily think=A0

Skickat fr=E5n min iPhone
<= div>
22 nov 2012 kl. 16:12 skrev Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>:
=A0 larlermorna does indeed have (some) system to the letters -- for = example, the mirroring of the voice with their unvoice equivalents. =A0But = there have been plenty of other lojban orthographies, too. For instance see= =A0http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Original+lojban+orthography Or = for that matter, read about ALL the various attempts at alternate orthograp= hies. =A0http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Alternate+Orthographies =A0Qu= ite frankly, the advantage of using an existing orthography that most peopl= e in the world are already familiar with (which is used by an EXTREMELY wid= e range of cultures all over the world) always far outweighs people's r= esistance to having to learn an entirely new orthography, so proposals alwa= ys fizzle out.

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 3:56 AM, Sebastian <= so.cool.ogi@gmail.com> wrote:

...Next question is: phonemic = or ideograms? The advantage of phonemic characters is they're not so ma= ny. I like "larlermorna", it looks great and seems to be pretty e= asy to use, but it hasn't the systematically phonetic system as tengwar= has.

Ideograms does not take up as much t= extual space as phonemes does and they might look cool (I think the visual = impression really matters). And it's probably possible to construct the= m intelligently, as charlicopter suggested=A0to represent info= rmation about lojbanic structure (arity (place structure), abstractions, de= scriptors, modifiers etc),=A0by means of "st= roke length, angle, curvature, dots, rotation/orientation, etc."

Toki pona got their own set of hieroglyphs, so why not lojban?

Negative: = There are ba'e a lot of them, which need to be constructed (toki pona g= ot 123, lojban need at least 1800 + complex lujvo forms; and what about fu&= #39;ivla?). Phonetic information may get lost in a ideogram system, if not = each character also contain all the phonemes of each word, but then the cha= racters would be fairly complex.

mu'omi'e jongausib
Skickat fr=E5n min iPhone

22 nov 2012 kl= . 09:32 skrev Sebastian <so.cool.ogi@gmail.com>:

=
Latin orthography has the advantage of many people in the world k= now about it, it's being used a lot in scientific contexts, it's co= mpatible with ASCII, etc.

Negative: Latin letters are not cultural neutral, they&= #39;ve got history and are a part of West's cultural "colonialism&= quot; or what you would to call it.

There is no or= tography associated with natural language that is cultural neutral, therefo= re I think it's a great idea to construct a completely new set of chara= cters, with no history (yet).

When constructing this character set you may, or may no= t, be inspired by existing writing systems like hangul, japanese, devanagar= i, arabic etc etc., but I think the result should be something completely d= ifferent.

Tengwar has the advantage of not being so real-world cu= ltural biased, but it's still not uniquely associated with lojban. I th= ink lojban shouldn't borrow cultural signs from other, fictional or non= -fictional, but have their own lojbanic (global) cultural system.

Next question is: phonemic or ideograms? The advantage = of phonemic characters is they're not so many. I like=A0

=
Skickat fr=E5n min iPhone

21 nov 2012 kl. 19:15 skrev Mor= phemeAddict <lytl= esw@gmail.com>:

How does the current standard orth= ography not meet the aims of your proposal?=A0

stevo
=
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 6:43 PM, charlicopter@gmail.com= <lanternsmith@gmail.com> wrote:

Greetings everyone,
This is my first tim= e visiting the forums...
My curiosity currently lies in the possibility = of a written system that could be developed around Lojban that respects its= logical nature.
As far as I can tell in my rudimentary beginnings as a student of Lojban: T= he language is designed around phonetics in a similar way to Japanese. by t= hat, I mean that the language uses predictable and consistent combinations = of vowel and consonant phonetics in the structure of the constituent word-f= orms.

Preposition: In written Lojban, what if you used a character system sim= ilar to Japanese hiragana and katakana: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katakana= =A0 &=A0 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiragana
Japanese Katakana and Hiragana are based on characters which hail from anci= ent cultural influences, but what if you started fresh and designed charact= ers around some kind of logical analysis of Lojbanic structure, syntax, log= ic, etc. such that the characters are themselves always internally consiste= nt and logical? Pictorally speaking, you have many variables to draw upon: = stroke length, angle, curvature, dots, rotation/orientation, etc. certainly= as many variables as are needed to accurately represent the phonetics, syn= tax etc. of the language. In this way, entire gismu might have a chance of = being reduced to single characters which LOOK and FLOW as logically as they= behave.

Thoughts?

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