Skickat fr=E5n min iPhone<= /div>

22 nov 2012 kl. 17:26 skrev Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>:

"euro-American monoc= ulture"? Interesting, interesting. So you think that not only i= s the USA like Canada, but is like England is like France is li= ke Germany is like Spain, is like Sweden is like Finland is like Romania is= like Solvakia? Hmm... I have several thousand years of wars du= ring which time they were using Latin-derived alphabets that says you are j= ust wrong. Now, granted, they were using that BECAUSE of conqu= est, and many other cultures who didn't have written languages (aboriginal = Oceanians and Pacific Islanders, native American tribes, many African cultu= res, Vietnamese) had it spread to them by colonialism (either actual, or "c= ultural and economic), but that doesn't mean their cultures are any less di= verse. And yes, some cultures who did have their own writing system c= ame to use it informally (i.e.Japanese romaji or Pinyin) due to a com= bination of ease in use with telegraphic systems. But please don't co= nfuse the Roman alphabet with English. That's a separate issue. Lojba= n isn't American, and it isn't European. And the fact that we happen to use= a writing system that's derived from the same writing system that is in us= e by billions of people in all parts of the globe speaking (writing) hundre= ds, if not thousands of languages is enough cultural neutrality for me.
--gejyspa

<= br>
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Sebastian <= span dir=3D"ltr"><so.cool.ogi@gmail.com> wrote:

Well, I agree that it= 's comfortable that most people are familiar with latin characters. But tha= t simply mirrors the fact that Europe/US had been very succesful in spreadi= ng their ideas and culture to the rest of the world pu ze'ucaku by means of= their greater economic, political and cultural dominance (=3D cultural and= economic colonialism). McDonalds, CocaCola, Apple and Hollywood-produced m= ovies are integrated in an extremely wide range of cultures too nowadays. L= ojbanic culture has the potential of becoming something else than an extens= ion of the euro-american global monoculture I think, to create something of= their own. The reason why lojbanists doesn't critize latin script on these= grounds might be something for a sociologist to analyze. But until we've g= ot a succesful ortography, that most lojbanists could agree on, I think lat= in characters will do just fine.

mu'omi'e jongausib

So I = don't necessarily think

Skickat fr=E5n min iPhone
22 nov 2012 kl. 16:12 skrev Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>:

larlermorna does indeed have (some) system to the letters -- f= or example, the mirroring of the voice with their unvoice equivalents. &nbs= p;But there have been plenty of other lojban orthographies, too. For instan= ce see http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Original+lojban+orthograph= y Or for that matter, read about ALL the various attempts at alternate = orthographies. http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Alternate+Orthographi= es Quite frankly, the advantage of using an existing orthography = that most people in the world are already familiar with (which is used by a= n EXTREMELY wide range of cultures all over the world) always far outweighs= people's resistance to having to learn an entirely new orthography, so pro= posals always fizzle out.

--gej= yspa

On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 3= :56 AM, Sebastian <so.cool.ogi@gmail.com> wrote:

...Next question is: phonemic = or ideograms? The advantage of phonemic characters is they're not so many. = I like "larlermorna", it looks great and seems to be pretty easy to use, bu= t it hasn't the systematically phonetic system as tengwar has.

Ideograms does not take up as much t= extual space as phonemes does and they might look cool (I think the visual = impression really matters). And it's probably possible to construct them in= telligently, as charlicopter suggested to represent infor= mation about lojbanic structure (arity (place structure), abstractions, des= criptors, modifiers etc), by means of "strok= e length, angle, curvature, dots, rotation/orientation, etc."

Toki pona got their own set of hieroglyphs, so why not lojban?

Negative: = There are ba'e a lot of them, which need to be constructed (toki pona got 1= 23, lojban need at least 1800 + complex lujvo forms; and what about fu'ivla= ?). Phonetic information may get lost in a ideogram system, if not each cha= racter also contain all the phonemes of each word, but then the characters = would be fairly complex.

mu'omi'e jongausib
= Skickat fr=E5n min iPhone

22 nov 2012 kl. 09:32 = skrev Sebastian <so.cool.ogi@gmail.com>:

=
Latin orthography has the advantage of many people in the world k= now about it, it's being used a lot in scientific contexts, it's compatible= with ASCII, etc.

Negative: Latin letters are not cultural neutral, they'= ve got history and are a part of West's cultural "colonialism" or what you = would to call it.

There is no ortography associate= d with natural language that is cultural neutral, therefore I think it's a = great idea to construct a completely new set of characters, with no history= (yet).

When constructing this character set you may, or may no= t, be inspired by existing writing systems like hangul, japanese, devanagar= i, arabic etc etc., but I think the result should be something completely d= ifferent.

Tengwar has the advantage of not being so real-world cu= ltural biased, but it's still not uniquely associated with lojban. I think = lojban shouldn't borrow cultural signs from other, fictional or non-fiction= al, but have their own lojbanic (global) cultural system.

Next question is: phonemic or ideograms? The advantage = of phonemic characters is they're not so many. I like

<= br>Skickat fr=E5n min iPhone

21 nov 2012 kl. 19:15 skrev Morp= hemeAddict <lytle= sw@gmail.com>:

How does the current standard orth= ography not meet the aims of your proposal?

stevo<= br>
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 6:43 PM, charlicopter@gmail.com= <lanternsmith@gmail.com> wrote:

Greetings everyone,
This is my first tim= e visiting the forums...
My curiosity currently lies in the possibility = of a written system that could be developed around Lojban that respects its= logical nature.
As far as I can tell in my rudimentary beginnings as a student of Lojban: T= he language is designed around phonetics in a similar way to Japanese. by t= hat, I mean that the language uses predictable and consistent combinations = of vowel and consonant phonetics in the structure of the constituent word-f= orms.

Preposition: In written Lojban, what if you used a character system sim= ilar to Japanese hiragana and katakana: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katakana&= nbsp; & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiragana
Japanese Katakana and Hiragana are based on characters which hail from anci= ent cultural influences, but what if you started fresh and designed charact= ers around some kind of logical analysis of Lojbanic structure, syntax, log= ic, etc. such that the characters are themselves always internally consiste= nt and logical? Pictorally speaking, you have many variables to draw upon: = stroke length, angle, curvature, dots, rotation/orientation, etc. certainly= as many variables as are needed to accurately represent the phonetics, syn= tax etc. of the language. In this way, entire gismu might have a chance of = being reduced to single characters which LOOK and FLOW as logically as they= behave.

Thoughts?

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