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From: la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Two new gismu, "stomach" and "back of body". And a
 proposal for an updated method of generating gismu.
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On Friday, November 23, 2012 9:44:03 PM UTC+4, lojbab wrote:
>
> Jacob Errington wrote: 
> > When it comes to discussing the front of the body, we have {flira} for 
> > the face, {cutne} for the chest, and {betfu} for the abdomen. Now, when 
> > it comes to discussing the back, there're the (poorly formed) lujvo 
> > {cutyti'e} and {befti'e}, which according to the gismu deep stucture, 
> > simply mean "x1 is behind the chest of x2" and "x1 is behind the abdomen 
> > of x2". With that in mind, would "back of head" be {firti'e} ? Can we 
> > coin joi-based lujvo to mean frontal side and dorsal side? They could be 
> > {cutyjolbe'u} and {cutyti'ekepjolkembefti'e} but that's just getting 
> silly. 
>
> When we created the gismu, we simply intended trixe for the 
> back/posterior/dorsal and crane for the front/anterior/ventral, 
> presuming that people would make lujvo if more specificity was needed 
> (e.g. to distinguish dorsal and posterior in a fish, which has the 
> spinal axis in a different direction from humans). 
>
> We did not distinguish between the back direction (behind the body, not 
> part of the body) and the back part of the body - that was also to be 
> done with lujvo.  There were a variety of ideas, on how to do this so we 
> decided not to decide.  But we didn't think the distinction warranted 
> two different gismu, because in fact we didn't find such a distinction 
> was very clear in the natlangs we were looking at. 
>

It's true that natlangs lack such distinction.  Even if fu'ivla what would 
be the etymology of the word required?
As for {bekpi} vs. {trixe} look at the picture of the fish from Wikipedia 
that ARJ provided.
What is {trixe} of that fish? Isn't it just .... tail?
however, dorsal part is obviously {bekpi}. For now we can use {tolbekpi} 
for ventral side until we decide what to do with a non-lujvo "ventral side".



> I'm not recommending specific lujvo now, because I suspect that 
> different solutions would apply to different problems.  A chart of terms 
> on wikipedia that was mentioned applies to vertebrates, but what about 
> other animal (and plant and whatever) forms? 
>
> I'd be inclined to use one or more fu'ivla before creating a new gismu. 
>   Adding to the gismu set when it was avoidable was offensive to a large 
> segment of Lojban supporters back when we were finalizing the list, and 
> we stopped considering changes when the number of proposals to eliminate 
> gismu exceeded the number of new additions. 
>
> back of head would presumable by sedyti'u to correspond to your 
> {cutyti'e} and {befti'e}.  While humans have a flira on the sedycra, one 
> can certainly imagine having a separate flira on the sedyti'u. 
>
> lojbab 
> -- 
> Bob LeChevalier    loj...@lojban.org <javascript:>    www.lojban.org 
> President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 
>
>

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<br><br>On Friday, November 23, 2012 9:44:03 PM UTC+4, lojbab wrote:<blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-lef=
t: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">Jacob Errington wrote:
<br>&gt; When it comes to discussing the front of the body, we have {flira}=
 for
<br>&gt; the face, {cutne} for the chest, and {betfu} for the abdomen. Now,=
 when
<br>&gt; it comes to discussing the back, there're the (poorly formed) lujv=
o
<br>&gt; {cutyti'e} and {befti'e}, which according to the gismu deep stuctu=
re,
<br>&gt; simply mean "x1 is behind the chest of x2" and "x1 is behind the a=
bdomen
<br>&gt; of x2". With that in mind, would "back of head" be {firti'e} ? Can=
 we
<br>&gt; coin joi-based lujvo to mean frontal side and dorsal side? They co=
uld be
<br>&gt; {cutyjolbe'u} and {cutyti'ekepjolkembefti'e} but that's just getti=
ng silly.
<br>
<br>When we created the gismu, we simply intended trixe for the=20
<br>back/posterior/dorsal and crane for the front/anterior/ventral,=20
<br>presuming that people would make lujvo if more specificity was needed=
=20
<br>(e.g. to distinguish dorsal and posterior in a fish, which has the=20
<br>spinal axis in a different direction from humans).
<br>
<br>We did not distinguish between the back direction (behind the body, not=
=20
<br>part of the body) and the back part of the body - that was also to be=
=20
<br>done with lujvo. &nbsp;There were a variety of ideas, on how to do this=
 so we=20
<br>decided not to decide. &nbsp;But we didn't think the distinction warran=
ted=20
<br>two different gismu, because in fact we didn't find such a distinction=
=20
<br>was very clear in the natlangs we were looking at.
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It's true that natlangs lack such dist=
inction. &nbsp;Even if fu'ivla what would be the etymology of the word requ=
ired?</div><div>As for {bekpi} vs. {trixe} look at the picture of the fish =
from Wikipedia that ARJ provided.</div><div>What is {trixe} of that fish? I=
sn't it just .... tail?</div><div>however, dorsal part is obviously {bekpi}=
. For now we can use {tolbekpi} for ventral side until we decide what to do=
 with a non-lujvo "ventral side".</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-le=
ft: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>I'm not recommending specific lujvo now, because I suspect that=20
<br>different solutions would apply to different problems. &nbsp;A chart of=
 terms=20
<br>on wikipedia that was mentioned applies to vertebrates, but what about=
=20
<br>other animal (and plant and whatever) forms?
<br>
<br>I'd be inclined to use one or more fu'ivla before creating a new gismu.=
=20
<br>&nbsp; Adding to the gismu set when it was avoidable was offensive to a=
 large=20
<br>segment of Lojban supporters back when we were finalizing the list, and=
=20
<br>we stopped considering changes when the number of proposals to eliminat=
e=20
<br>gismu exceeded the number of new additions.
<br>
<br>back of head would presumable by sedyti'u to correspond to your=20
<br>{cutyti'e} and {befti'e}. &nbsp;While humans have a flira on the sedycr=
a, one=20
<br>can certainly imagine having a separate flira on the sedyti'u.
<br>
<br>lojbab
<br>--=20
<br>Bob LeChevalier &nbsp; &nbsp;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" =
gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"MKJ_s54pnV4J">loj...@lojban.org</a> &nbsp; &nbsp;<=
a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org" target=3D"_blank">www.lojban.org</a>
<br>President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
<br>
<br></blockquote>

<p></p>

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