Received: from mail-ob0-f189.google.com ([209.85.214.189]:46931) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TcuWg-0001ke-1e; Mon, 26 Nov 2012 00:59:21 -0800 Received: by mail-ob0-f189.google.com with SMTP id eh20sf8106407obb.16 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2012 00:58:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ALLkDXIfYXAtfYFhAK3xpqaFhmipMZ8vtsD58Ogj134=; b=h1yhhm6BAd2k/d02pFjR8No6joQ7i5UXLWjtxotsUDtcLxDB4IoSOaEzZgEdmHyNBD jgZooKTnM+fdjlGtPlGUb8bL3ShLjs1wb9nQXezc85ZmDxJ0vOIyYqielOPdMouoFoFz 4YtPDYmbcoKidT1K7mX7uVVTboiS66l8B2sWWp02vCutosycPIFox5ynQkfojimzAbm/ tGXDHxUIaG/8S/oQ5osWDgeLQ+4d3iKZqjwynK86KrGAF8ZcBbklXYWfnhYfLktpIoVh W7Dj7tz2V3kWeFq//ST+FvgwJXJZVBlA+TzBkRGl1emiMXsezwSfhpKxmN0yj3DCPc2o +DFA== Received: by 10.49.116.115 with SMTP id jv19mr1729462qeb.21.1353920323431; Mon, 26 Nov 2012 00:58:43 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.1.5 with SMTP id 5ls1635673qei.18.gmail; Mon, 26 Nov 2012 00:58:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.49.24.13 with SMTP id q13mr2092984qef.33.1353920322376; Mon, 26 Nov 2012 00:58:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 00:58:41 -0800 (PST) From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <98ac3a8c-7f91-4049-a8ee-128f9a947671@googlegroups.com> <60b24557-d28a-4330-91e2-4fa350f35cbd@googlegroups.com> <6cb197db-5690-48fb-8a88-3e633bb6f94b@googlegroups.com> <285a3908-97fd-4231-8767-479dd0779da8@googlegroups.com> <20121113171712.GG22972@sunflowerriver.org> <699d8b9d-2f04-4a0a-b2cf-a9f498ac19fd@googlegroups.com> <20121113194725.GL22972@sunflowerriver.org> <7c389416-3ceb-4d21-9b6b-e4e1cb5d312f@googlegroups.com> <2d4db499-3585-4456-b7c7-6a6846d6bcee@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: A new Lojbanic wiki (LMW). On the threshold of the 25th anniversary of Lojban MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_39_11654745.1353920321782" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_39_11654745.1353920321782 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 The shortest answer to you will be "No one among us has enough free time/skills/expertise... to do that". Don't give orders like "Update this, activate that..." If you are willing to help us yourself please do. On Monday, November 26, 2012 5:21:48 AM UTC+4, Marc Laporte wrote: > > Hi! > > Re-sending message below as I got an error message the first time I posted > and I am not sure it got through. (and no one replied after 9 days) > > Best regards, > > M ;-) > > On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 3:51 AM, Marc Laporte > > wrote: > >> Hi! >> >> I am a project admin for Tiki and I'd like to share some information. >> >> 1- On this list, some refer to Twiki and some to Tiki. These are two >> distinct projects. >> Tiki Wiki CMS Groupware (or just Tiki) is in PHP http://tiki.org >> Twiki is in Perl http://twiki.org >> >> It's important that you know this, so if you do some research and >> comparison, you'll be looking at the right tool. >> >> >> 2- Changing tools takes time & energy and data is lost. What features are >> you missing in Tiki? >> >> Tiki has been for several years now, the Free and Open Source Web >> Application with the most built-in features >> http://tiki.org/FOSS+Web+Application+with+the+most+built-in+features >> >> Let me repeat that to be very clear. Of all the web applications in the >> World, Tiki is the FOSS web app with the most built-in features. Chances >> are, what you need/want is just a checkbox away. You can use for much more >> than just a wiki but everything to do with the community (forums, blog, >> calendar, issue/task tracker, etc.) >> >> 2a) "I can't embed pictures on tiki pages like on MediaWiki" -> embedding >> pictures exists, just need to activate. All wikis handle pictures! And >> coming to Tiki10 (now in Alpha): the World's first full-featured both Open >> Source and Web-based screencasting solution: >> http://doc.tiki.org/Screencast Not only can it take a snapshot of your >> desktop, you can even draw on the image, or even record your screen with >> audio! Having audio recordings of Lojban terms in wiki pages would be >> cool, no? >> >> 2b) "MediaWiki seems to provide better editing support and, most >> importantly, a place to shove all of our discussions" >> >> Tiki has: >> http://doc.tiki.org/Comments >> http://doc.tiki.org/Inline+comments >> >> Please let me know what better editing support you need. >> >> The wiki toolbar (with buttons for bold, italic, etc.) is not activated >> on lojban.org Go try demo.tiki.org to see what it's like normally. >> http://doc.tiki.org/Toolbar >> >> 2c) "fresh start" >> >> Tiki has a powerful category system. You could categorize all pages, and >> from the category, have a different theme or permissions. So eventually, >> old pages can be kept but not visible by anonymous users. >> http://doc.tiki.org/Category >> >> This permits a fresh start without the risk of duplicating data. >> >> 3- Tiki has superb multilingual handling. It's all detailed here: >> >> http://wiki-translation.com/tiki-download_wiki_attachment.php?attId=55&download=y >> >> I challenge anyone to find a more advanced system. I presented several >> times, including at the latest WikiMania: >> >> https://wikimania2012.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Cross-lingual_Wiki_Engine >> >> No one has anything like this. Wikipedia has a different instance for >> each language. This makes it difficult to do content tracking, although >> they have a system to track the corresponding page-link in the other >> language. But this means that you need to add a new MediaWiki instance for >> each language. In Tiki, you just add a page, and no extra work is needed to >> add a new language. >> >> 4- Here is an example of a community than went from MediaWiki to Tiki, to >> have more features: >> http://www.ogre3d.org/tikiwiki/Ogre+Wiki+Help >> >> Not only is Tiki the web app with the most built-in features, no other >> major CMS / Web app has released more major versions in the last 4 year: >> * 2009-05: http://doc.tiki.org/Tiki3 LTS >> * 2009-11: http://doc.tiki.org/Tiki4 >> * 2010-06: http://doc.tiki.org/Tiki5 >> * 2010-11: http://doc.tiki.org/Tiki6 LTS >> * 2011-06: http://doc.tiki.org/Tiki7 >> * 2011-11: http://doc.tiki.org/Tiki8 >> * 2012-06: http://doc.tiki.org/Tiki9 LTS >> * 2012-11: http://doc.tiki.org/Tiki10 (in alpha at the moment) >> >> To be fair, WordPress also had 8 major releases during the same >> approximative time frame (http://wordpress.org/about/roadmap/). More >> recently than Tiki, Typo3 and Joomla! have moved to a 6-month release >> cycle. But in all these cases, with their extension-based model, not all >> features are ready at the same time. And sometimes, extensions are never >> ported to the next version. Thanks to the Tiki model, we have inherent >> synchronized releases >> http://tiki.org/Model#Inherent_synchronized_releases >> >> With over 50% of browser usage on the rapid release cycle (Chrome and >> Firefox), it makes perfect sense for web applications to have a rapid >> release cycle as well. Tiki is well positioned to take advantage of all the >> innovations! However, some people are happy with the current feature set, >> and Long Term Support (LTS) versions were introduced in 2009, and more >> recently, we doubled the support period: >> http://info.tiki.org/Version+Lifecycle >> >> Tiki turned 10 years old last month >> http://info.tiki.org/article201-A-Decade-of-Tiki >> >> Tiki reached 500 contributors with commit access (top project on >> SourceForge.net) >> >> http://info.tiki.org/article188-Tiki-reaches-500-contributors-with-commit-access >> Listen to the podcast! >> >> Tiki Passed 1 Million Downloads >> http://info.tiki.org/article192-Tiki-Passes-1-Million-Downloads >> >> Tiki wins People's Choice: Best Free CMS of the CMS Critic's awards >> https://info.tiki.org/article206-Tiki-wins-People-s-Choice-Best-Free-CMS >> >> Tiki was named best "Best Web Tool" by WebHostingSearch.com >> http://info.tiki.org/article197-Tiki-Named-Best-Web-Tool >> >> And for previous news, see 2011 Year in Review: >> http://info.tiki.org/article181-2011-Year-in-Review >> >> I think you'll agree: it's pretty impressive! >> >> And Tiki has features that MediaWiki will never have. >> >> There is also the Interactive Translation feature: >> http://doc.tiki.org/Interactive+Translation >> This permits web-based, in-context translations of the interface. So >> community members can translate not only the content but also the app to >> Lojban! >> >> So I suggest: >> >> 1- Make a list of what you want >> 2- Upgrade Tiki to latest version (your version seems to be 2 years old) >> 3- Then, decide to keep or change. >> >> Best regards, >> >> M ;-) >> >> PS. Below is a copy-paste of a generic list of Top Reasons to Use Tiki: >> >> >> 1. *A confident and future-proof choice* : >> - Over a million downloadsand counting >> - Tiki has been nominated for, and received, several awards >> - Uses top-notch Underlying technologies: >> - PHP scripting language >> - MySQL or MariaDB database >> - Smarty template engine >> - jQuery JavaScript library >> - Zend Framework >> 2. * A vibrant community* >> - IRC chat room, discussion forums, documentation, etc. >> - If you want hired help, or want to offer services, there is a Tiki >> Service Provider program >> - Tiki is a community recursively building a community management >> system, which is called Dogfooding >> 3. *Tons of features*: >> - Over 1,500 unique features/options making it the Free and Open >> Source Web Application with the most built-in features >> - Ideal for most use cases, such as Collaboration, Publishing, >> Commerce, Social networking, Office productivity tools, E-learning, etc. >> - Has the breadth and depth to most likely address your specific >> needs as it has been developed through the collaborative work of hundreds >> of contributors for over 10 years. >> 4. * Features are built-in* >> - *No need to research, choose, download and install additional >> modules/extensions/plugins*: There is no feature duplication. All >> the features are built-in, collaboratively maintained by the community, so >> you avoid the pain of abandoned modules/plugins/extensions. >> - *Everything works with everything*: The whole community >> collaborates on the features instead of having modules/extensions/plugins >> which may have incompatibilities. Turn everything on and it will work. Try >> that with modules/extensions/plugins! [image: :-)] >> - *Quick timely upgrades*: When a new version of Tiki comes out, >> you can upgrade right away and all the features are available. >> 5. *Interoperable*: >> - Can run on any Operating System (Windows, Mac or Linux) >> - Works with any browser >> - Interoperability with a very large number of online services, >> complementary software, technologies and standards. >> 6. *Open Collaboration*: If you need a new feature, join the >> community and let's work together. If you are a developer, check out How >> to get commit access >> 7. *Innovation*: For the latest and greatest and quick access to new >> features, use the rapid release cycle, with 2 new major releases per year. >> No other major web applications has had more major releases since 2008. On >> average, developers update the code (with new features and fixes) over a >> dozen times every day. >> 8. *Stability*: For a super stable system with very few changes: Use >> the Long Term Support (LTS) versions, which is supported for 3.5 years. >> 9. *Easy install*: You can use the 1-click installers. All the >> features, languages, etc. are available in the basic install. >> 10. *Easy to configure* : All features/options are activated from the >> web-based control panel. >> 11. *Adaptable*: By default, only a small number of basic, >> commonly-used features appear in the control panel. As your needs grow, you >> can also display advanced and experimental features/options. >> 12. *Easy upgrades*: Upgrade from any past version to any supported >> version in one step. (so you can upgrade from 2.x to 15.x) >> - No need to deal with diverse release dates of core software vs >> modules/plugins/extensions >> 13. *No lock-in*: Community supported, no single vendor. >> 14. *Free*: free & open source software, licensed as LGPL. >> >> >> >> On Friday, 16 November 2012 01:25:53 UTC-5, iesk wrote: >>> >>> How about >>> - not using a translation extension; >>> - setting the default (= menu display and so on) language to Lojban >>> (logged in users may be able to change it for themselves); >>> - letting everybody write in what language(s) (s)he prefers; >>> - using tags ('categories'?) like 'eng', 'deu', 'jbo', ... whatever; >>> - preparing templates like 'This is a translation of [[bla]].' or 'Cf. >>> [[corresponding page]] in [[language]].' to be used where seen fit? >>> >>> A bit chaotic perhaps, but less demanding for users/editors, I believe. >>> >>> -iesk >>> >>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/lH2tnZE8HmAJ. >> >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com >> . >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > > > -- > M ;-) > > Marc Laporte > http://marclaporte.com > http://avantech.net > http://tiki.org > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/y5svWYKJWGUJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. ------=_Part_39_11654745.1353920321782 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The shortest answer to you will be "No one among us has enough free time/sk= ills/expertise... to do that".
Don't give orders like "Update this, act= ivate that..."
If you are willing to help us yourself please do.<= /div>


On Monday, November 26, 2012 5:21:48 AM UTC+4, Marc Lapor= te wrote:
Hi!

Re-sending= message below as I got an error message the first time I posted and I am n= ot sure it got through. (and no one replied after 9 days)

Best regar= ds,

M ;-)

On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at = 3:51 AM, Marc Laporte <marcl...@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:
Hi!

I am a project admin for Tiki and= I'd like to share some information.

1- On this list, some refer to = Twiki and some to Tiki. These are two distinct projects.
Tiki Wiki CMS Groupware (or just Tiki) is in PHP  http://tiki.org
Twiki is in Perl &nbs= p; http://twiki.org
<= br>It's important that you know this, so if you do some research and compar= ison, you'll be looking at the right tool.


2- Changing tools takes time & energy and data is lost. What fe= atures are you missing in Tiki?

Tiki has been for several years now,= the Free and Open Source Web Application with the most built-in features http://tiki.org/FOSS+Web+Application+with+the+= most+built-in+features

Let me repeat that to be very clear. Of all the web applications in the=20 World, Tiki is the FOSS web app with the most built-in features. Chances are, what you need/want is just a checkbox away. You can use for much=20 more than just a wiki but everything to do with the community (forums,=20 blog, calendar, issue/task tracker, etc.)

2a) "I can't embed=20 pictures on tiki pages like on MediaWiki" -> embedding pictures=20 exists, just need to activate. All wikis handle pictures!  And coming = to Tiki10 (now in Alpha): the World's first full-featured both Open Source and Web-based screencasting solution: http://doc.tiki.org/Screencast  = ;=20 Not only can it take a snapshot of your desktop, you can even draw on=20 the image, or even record your screen with audio!   Having audio= =20 recordings of Lojban terms in wiki pages would be cool, no?

2b) "Med= iaWiki seems to provide better editing support and, most importantly, a pla= ce to shove all of our discussions"

Tiki has:
http://doc.tiki.org/Comments http://do= c.tiki.org/Inline+comments

Please let me know what better e= diting support you need.

The wiki toolbar (with buttons for bold, italic, etc.) is not activated on=20 lojban.org  &= nbsp; Go try demo.tiki.o= rg to see what it's like normally.
http://doc.tiki.org/Toolbar

2c) "fresh start"

Tiki has a powerful category system. You could categorize all pages, and=20 from the category, have a different theme or permissions. So eventually, old pages can be kept but not visible by anonymous users.
http://doc.tiki.org/Category<= /a>

This permits a fresh start without the risk of duplicating data.=

3- Tiki has superb multilingual handling. It's all detailed here:
http://wiki-translation.com/tiki-download_wiki_attachment.php?attId=3D55&download=3Dy


I challenge anyone to find a more advanced system. I presented several = times, including at the latest WikiMania:
https://wikimania2012.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Cross-li= ngual_Wiki_Engine

No one has anything like this. Wikipedia has a different instance for each language. This makes it difficult to do content tracking, although they have a system to track the corresponding page-link in the other=20 language. But this means that you need to add a new MediaWiki instance=20 for each language. In Tiki, you just add a page, and no extra work is=20 needed to add a new language.

4- Here is an example of a community t= han went from MediaWiki to Tiki, to have more features:
http://www.ogre= 3d.org/tikiwiki/Ogre+Wiki+Help

Not only is Tiki the web app with the most built-in features, no other=20 major CMS / Web app has released more major versions in the last 4 year:* 2009-05: http://= doc.tiki.org/Tiki3 LTS
* 2009-11: http://doc.tiki.org/Tiki4
* 2010-06: http://d= oc.tiki.org/Tiki5
* 2010-11: http://doc.tiki.org/Tiki6 LTS
* 2011-06: http://doc.tiki.org/Tiki7=
* 2011-11: http://d= oc.tiki.org/Tiki8
* 2012-06: http://doc.tiki.org/Tiki9 LTS
* 2012-11: http://doc.tiki.org/Tiki10 (in alpha at the moment)

To be fair, WordPress also had 8 major releases during the same=20 approximative time frame (
http://wordpress.org/about/roadmap/). More=20 recently than Tiki, Typo3 and Joomla! have moved to a 6-month release=20 cycle. But in all these cases, with their extension-based model, not all features are ready at the same time. And sometimes, extensions are=20 never ported to the next version. Thanks to the Tiki model, we have=20 inherent synchronized releases
http://tiki.org/Model#Inhere= nt_synchronized_releases

With over 50% of browser usage on the rapid release cycle (Chrome and=20 Firefox), it makes perfect sense for web applications to have a rapid=20 release cycle as well. Tiki is well positioned to take advantage of all=20 the innovations! However, some people are happy with the current feature set, and Long Term Support (LTS) versions were introduced in 2009, and=20 more recently, we doubled the support period:=20 http:/= /info.tiki.org/Version+Lifecycle

Tiki turned 10 years old l= ast month
http://info.tiki.org/article201-A-Decade-of-Tiki<= br>
Tiki reached 500 contributors with commit access (top project on Source= Forge.net)
http://info.tiki.org/article188-Tiki-reaches-500-contributors-with-commit-access<= br>      Listen to the podcast!

Tiki Passed 1 Million Dow= nloads
http://info.tiki.org/article192-Tiki-Pass= es-1-Million-Downloads

Tiki wins People's Choice: Best Free CMS of the CMS Critic's awards
= https://info.tiki.org/article206-Tiki-wins= -People-s-Choice-Best-Free-CMS

Tiki was named best "Best Web Tool" by WebHostingSearch.com
http://info.tiki.org/article197-Tiki-Named-Best-Web-Tool=

And for previous news, see 2011 Year in Review:
http://info.t= iki.org/article181-2011-Year-in-Review

I think you'll agree= : it's pretty impressive!

And Tiki has features that MediaWiki will never have.

There is a= lso the Interactive Translation feature: http://doc.tiki.org/Interactiv= e+Translation
This permits web-based, in-context translations of the interface. So=20 community members can translate not only the content but also the app to Lojban!

So I suggest:

1- Make a list of what you want
2- = Upgrade Tiki to latest version  (your version seems to be 2 years old)=
3- Then, decide to keep or change.

Best regards,

M ;-)
PS. Below is a copy-paste of a generic list of Top Reasons to Use Tiki:=

  1. A confident and future-proof choice :
  2. A vibrant community
    • IRC chat room, discussion forums, documentation, etc.
    • If you want hired help, or want to offer services, there is a Tiki Service Provider program
    • Tiki is a community recursively building a community management s= ystem, which is called Dogfooding
  3. Tons of features:
    • Over 1,500 unique features/options making it the Free and Open Source Web Application with the most b= uilt-in features
    • Ideal for most use cases, such as Collaboration, Publishing,=20 Commerce, Social networking, Office productivity tools, E-learning, etc.
    • Has the breadth and depth to most likely address your specific needs as it has been developed through the collaborative work of=20 hundreds of contributors for over 10 years.
  4. Features are built-in
    • No need to research, choose, download and install additional m= odules/extensions/plugins: There is no feature duplication. All the features are built-in,=20 collaboratively maintained by the community, so you avoid the pain of=20 abandoned modules/plugins/extensions.
    • Everything works with everything: The whole=20 community collaborates on the features instead of having=20 modules/extensions/plugins which may have incompatibilities. Turn=20 everything on and it will work. Try that with=20 modules/extensions/plugins! 3D":-)"
    • Quick timely upgrades: When a new version of Tiki comes ou= t, you can upgrade right away and all the features are available.
  5. Interoperable:
  6. Open Collaboration: If you need a new feature, j= oin the community and let's work together. If you are a developer, check ou= t How to get commit access
  7. Innovation: For the latest and greatest and=20 quick access to new features, use the rapid release cycle, with 2 new=20 major releases per year. No other major web applications has had more=20 major releases since 2008. On average, developers update the code (with=20 new features and fixes) over a dozen times every day.
  8. Stability: For a super stable system with very few changes= : Use the Long Term Support (LTS) versions, which is supported for 3.5 year= s.
  9. Easy install: You can use the 1-click installers. All the = features, languages, etc. are available in the basic install.
  10. Easy to configure : All features/options are activated fro= m the web-based control panel.
  11. Adaptable: By default, only a small number of basic, commonly-used features appear in the control panel. As your=20 needs grow, you can also display advanced and experimental=20 features/options.
  12. Easy upgrades: Upgrade from any past version to any suppor= ted version in one step. (so you can upgrade from 2.x to 15.x)
    • No need to deal with diverse release dates of core software vs mod= ules/plugins/extensions
  13. No lock-in: Community supported, no single vendo= r.
  14. Free: free & open source software, licensed as LGPL.


On Friday, 16 November 2012 01:25:53 UTC-5, iesk wr= ote:
How about
- not using a tran= slation extension;
- setting the default (=3D menu display and so on) language to Lojban (logg= ed in users may be able to change it for themselves);
- letting everybod= y write in what language(s) (s)he prefers;
- using tags ('categories'?) = like 'eng', 'deu', 'jbo', ... whatever;
- preparing templates like 'This is a translation of [[bla]].' or 'Cf.=20 [[corresponding page]] in [[language]].' to be used where seen fit?

A bit= chaotic perhaps, but less demanding for users/editors, I believe.

-i= esk


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com= /d/msg/lojban/-/lH2tnZE8HmAJ.

=20 To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+un...@googl= egroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/= lojban?hl=3Den.



--
M ;-)
<= br>Marc Laporte
htt= p://marclaporte.com
http://avantech.net
http://tiki.org

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/y5= svWYKJWGUJ.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
------=_Part_39_11654745.1353920321782--