Received: from mail-ye0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]:36391) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Tf5wF-0000rk-5c; Sun, 02 Dec 2012 01:34:26 -0800 Received: by mail-ye0-f189.google.com with SMTP id r9sf1784789yen.16 for ; Sun, 02 Dec 2012 01:34:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=9b0waYFc47+PGxHNzr+ZG2EOpT9qaoEpPhr+XX8KXzg=; b=GhrrUg61Q5uiLrhdUiXrZvFq84324gy9ChtYYRXzOLtBBf6hAyrnv3z2BjKDvw2HKv nYFFj1yb2kB1RAq9a2O1FUkgqhS/YVjqzS2ZbaBPDbUUIBtPFeotl1PrITvB8jbIP+eI KMtyh7biC2358qqex7EzETk08SYat0o1yWMyJOwb4szaGnHIYOIgV9sby+kIPcg+k0xS qDUjYX9hgbSzkDDxZq06ZbY2RZfT+7JhZkMhdGxGcGN9VLnF0Caw8AymWhyhlypGSKou Yj5edgyULQcatTG2pTVt8Gbk27ZuHBO6NK9YRJejWNlbEdZnNeLE9+Ij/g3dFjo7fT3B 3aVg== Received: by 10.49.71.169 with SMTP id w9mr1606440qeu.7.1354440847775; Sun, 02 Dec 2012 01:34:07 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.106.133 with SMTP id gu5ls710127qeb.14.gmail; Sun, 02 Dec 2012 01:34:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.59.0.194 with SMTP id ba2mr2265284ved.19.1354440847357; Sun, 02 Dec 2012 01:34:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.59.0.194 with SMTP id ba2mr2265283ved.19.1354440847335; Sun, 02 Dec 2012 01:34:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vc0-f182.google.com (mail-vc0-f182.google.com [209.85.220.182]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q13si2133535vdh.0.2012.12.02.01.34.07 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 02 Dec 2012 01:34:07 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.182 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.182; Received: by mail-vc0-f182.google.com with SMTP id fo14so1226708vcb.13 for ; Sun, 02 Dec 2012 01:34:07 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.58.232.226 with SMTP id tr2mr5757924vec.48.1354440847213; Sun, 02 Dec 2012 01:34:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.196.89 with HTTP; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 01:34:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <98ac3a8c-7f91-4049-a8ee-128f9a947671@googlegroups.com> <60b24557-d28a-4330-91e2-4fa350f35cbd@googlegroups.com> <6cb197db-5690-48fb-8a88-3e633bb6f94b@googlegroups.com> <285a3908-97fd-4231-8767-479dd0779da8@googlegroups.com> <20121113171712.GG22972@sunflowerriver.org> <699d8b9d-2f04-4a0a-b2cf-a9f498ac19fd@googlegroups.com> <20121113194725.GL22972@sunflowerriver.org> <7c389416-3ceb-4d21-9b6b-e4e1cb5d312f@googlegroups.com> <2d4db499-3585-4456-b7c7-6a6846d6bcee@googlegroups.com> <8f8fac5c-9085-48eb-8793-d0e536e45f85@googlegroups.com> <016d8978-9681-4d55-af4b-543a79abe45f@googlegroups.com> <21b9a5dc-7104-4b01-ac4a-3271e3000c8b@googlegroups.com> Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 02:34:06 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: A new Lojbanic wiki (LMW). On the threshold of the 25th anniversary of Lojban From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.182 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013a11a29142b604cfdb5559 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --089e013a11a29142b604cfdb5559 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 2:32 AM, la gleki wrote= : > On Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:10:34 AM UTC+4, vruxir wrote: >> >> Earlier today I was having a technical issue with translating -- >> basically, after editing and saving a "message" in the translation >> interface, a dialog box would pop up with a "tpt-unknown-page" error. >> However, now the problem has disappeared and translating works again, so >> I'm not sure what caused it. >> >> Another problem, as I try to add a new page, is that I can't upload >> images (specifically, I'm trying to add standard Wikimedia message box >> images, such as the "!" information bubble and a pencil-and-paper icon). >> Upon clicking the "Upload" button at the bottom, I get: >> >> Upload Warning: Could not create directory "mwstore://local-backend/** >> local-public/7/7e". >> >> Many people seem to think that it's a problem with folder write >> permissions. There is discussion here: http://www.mediawiki.** >> org/wiki/Thread:Project:**Support_desk/Trouble_** >> uploading_after_installation >> >> > The fact is that those directories have already been 777-ised. Earlier we > could upload images. I really don't know what happened. > It's possible that some recent changed modified the permissions and they need to be +w again. > (The same type of error message came up for both .svg and .png files.) >> >> mu'o >> >> On Saturday, December 1, 2012 4:34:58 AM UTC-5, la gleki wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Saturday, December 1, 2012 1:18:15 PM UTC+4, iesk wrote: >>>> >>>> Le samedi 1 d=E9cembre 2012 01:03:26 UTC+1, entot a =E9crit : >>>>> >>>>> It's not a question of if the default language is English or not. It'= s >>>>> a question of whether we present a Lojban-only page to a newcomer. I = think >>>>> showing a Lojbanic interface and Lojban-only content to a newcomer is= not >>>>> friendly. >>>>> >>>> (I guess its 'friendlier' than piping interested people through Englis= h >>>> when it isn't necessary.) >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> If the primary language is Lojban, are you, doi la gleki. .e la >>>>> .iesk., fine with importing all the pages from TWiki to LMW? Lots of = them >>>>> are in English. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Since I have so far not contributed anything useful to LMW, my opinion >>>> does not weigh much. >>>> >>>> I repeat that my idea of the wiki was that there be no 'primary >>>> language' for content pages. Everybody would write pages in the langua= ge(s) >>>> of their preference. I don't think it likely that there will be system= atic >>>> translations of all LMW pages in all LMW languages (whichever that may= be). >>>> Most content will probably be in English anyway (TWiki imports include= d), >>>> who would translate all that stuff? So why not have a page in, say, Fr= ench, >>>> link to relevant pages in, say, English, Lojban, =85 I have been argu= ing >>>> *against* any primary language, because that would, to my understandin= g, >>>> mean that you have to write (or wait for somebody to write) a page abo= ut >>>> 'broda' in the primary language before you can add a page about 'broda= ' in >>>> the language that you want. >>>> >>> >>> Unfortunately I have no idea of a mechanism of creating a wiki without >>> any primary language. And LMW is after all a linguistic project. The co= re >>> of Lojbanistan is Lojban which is a language. Anyway LMW-contributors m= ust >>> know at least some basic lojban. This will be enough to create new page= s in >>> simple lojban first and then creating it's "translation" in another >>> language e.g. English. >>> >>> *UPDATE:* >>> I already noticed first attempts of spamming in LMW from anonymous >>> users. Threrefore >>> ConfirmEdit extension installed to prevent spamming. ReCaptcha mode >>> activated for new users. It makes us dependent on third-party ReCaptcha >>> service, but it's the simplest solution. >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> ni'o >>>>> >>>>> I'm holding off any work I said or hinted I'd be doing (working on th= e >>>>> community portal and migrating) until I get a clear picture of what t= he >>>>> site organization is going to be [1]: >>>>> >>>>> * Who is the target audience? >>>>> * What content will it have, in what language? >>>>> >>>>> As far as I understand, there are two interests at hand: >>>>> >>>>> * Target audience: Lojban speakers >>>>> * Content: Anything in Lojban? / Translation projects, Lojbanic >>>>> writings, Lojbanists index >>>>> >>>>> * Target audience: Lojban learners >>>>> * Content: Learning materials in English and other languages around >>>>> the world >>>>> >>>> >>>> I na=EFvely thought of a home for all things Lojbanic. ;) >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> If this is the case, I think it's not out of the question to maintain >>>>> two separate wikis for each: lojban.org and ckule.lojban.org. In >>>>> MediaWiki, there is a way to share the extensions folder and such to = lessen >>>>> the admininstrative task. If there are corresponding pages between th= e two, >>>>> they can be linked to each other in the way Wikipedia links pages in = other >>>>> languages. >>>>> >>>>> Any thoughts? >>>>> >>>>> [1] This is partly an excuse to focus my time on helping CLL1.1; I'm >>>>> not a good multitasker. >>>>> >>>>> mu'o >>>>> >>>> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/-zJ25Ymxw20J. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --089e013a11a29142b604cfdb5559 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 2:32 AM, la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:10:34 AM UTC+4, vruxir wrot= e:
Earlier today I was having a tech= nical issue with translating -- basically, after editing and saving a "= ;message" in the translation interface, a dialog box would pop up with= a "tpt-unknown-page" error. However, now the problem has disappe= ared and translating works again, so I'm not sure what caused it.

Another problem, as I try to add a new page, is that I can&#= 39;t upload images (specifically, I'm trying to add standard Wikimedia = message box images, such as the "!" information bubble and a penc= il-and-paper icon). Upon clicking the "Upload" button at the bott= om, I get:

Upload Warning:=A0Could not create directory "mwst= ore://local-backend/local-public/7/7e".

Many people seem to think that it's a problem with folder write permi= ssions. There is discussion here:=A0http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Thread:Project:Supp= ort_desk/Trouble_uploading_after_installation


The fact is that thos= e directories have already been 777-ised. Earlier we could upload images. I= really don't know what happened.

It's p= ossible that some recent changed modified the permissions and they need to = be +w again.
=A0
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border= -left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
(The same type of error message came up for both .svg and .= png files.)

mu'o

On Saturday, December = 1, 2012 4:34:58 AM UTC-5, la gleki wrote:


On Saturday, December 1, 2012 1:18:15 PM UTC+4, iesk wrote:Le samedi 1 d=E9cembre 2012 01:03:26 UTC+1,= entot a =E9crit=A0:
It's not a question of if the default language is English or not. = It's a question of whether we present a Lojban-only page to a newcomer.= I think showing a Lojbanic interface and Lojban-only content to a newcomer= is not friendly.
(I guess its 'friendlier' than piping interested = people through English when it isn't necessary.)
=A0

If the primary language is Lojban, are you, doi la glek= i. .e la .iesk., fine with importing all the pages from TWiki to LMW? Lots = of them are in English.

Since I have so far not = contributed anything useful to LMW, my opinion does not weigh much.

I repeat that my idea of the wiki was that there be no 'primary lan= guage' for content pages. Everybody would write pages in the language(s= ) of their preference. I don't think it likely that there will be syste= matic translations of all LMW pages in all LMW languages (whichever that ma= y be). Most content will probably be in English anyway (TWiki imports inclu= ded), who would translate all that stuff? So why not have a page in, say, F= rench, link to relevant pages in, say, English, Lojban, =85=A0 I have been = arguing *against* any primary language, because that would, to my understan= ding, mean that you have to write (or wait for somebody to write) a page ab= out 'broda' in the primary language before you can add a page about= 'broda' in the language that you want.

Unfortunately I have no idea of a me= chanism of creating a wiki without any primary language. And LMW is after a= ll a linguistic project. The core of Lojbanistan is Lojban which is a langu= age. Anyway LMW-contributors must know at least some basic lojban. This wil= l be enough to create new pages in simple lojban first and then creating it= 's "translation" in another language e.g. English.

UPDATE:
I already noticed first attemp= ts of spamming in LMW from anonymous users. Threrefore
ConfirmEdit exten= sion installed to prevent spamming. ReCaptcha mode activated for new users.= It makes us dependent on third-party ReCaptcha service, but it's the s= implest solution.


=

=A0

ni'o

I'm holding off a= ny work I said or hinted I'd be doing (working on the community portal = and migrating) until I get a clear picture of what the site organization is= going to be [1]:

* Who is the target audience?
* What content = will it have, in what language?

As far as I unders= tand, there are two interests at hand:

* Target au= dience: Lojban speakers
* Content: Anything in Lojban? / Translation projects, Lojbanic writin= gs, Lojbanists index

* Target audience: Lojban lea= rners
* Content: Learning materials in English and other language= s around the world

I na=EFvely thought of a home for all things Lojbanic= . ;)
=A0

If this is the case, I think it's not out of the question to maintain= two separate wikis for each: lojban.org and ckule.lojban.org. In MediaWiki, there is a way to share the extensions= folder and such to lessen the admininstrative task. If there are correspon= ding pages between the two, they can be linked to each other in the way Wik= ipedia links pages in other languages.

Any thoughts?

[1] This is part= ly an excuse to focus my time on helping CLL1.1; I'm not a good multita= sker.

mu'o

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com= /d/msg/lojban/-/-zJ25Ymxw20J.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--089e013a11a29142b604cfdb5559--