Received: from mail-ie0-f189.google.com ([209.85.223.189]:57850) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TgzFY-0003VE-Hc; Fri, 07 Dec 2012 06:50:17 -0800 Received: by mail-ie0-f189.google.com with SMTP id c11sf304658ieb.16 for ; Fri, 07 Dec 2012 06:49:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=SqEymtK6n4V/F5gwHbu780ADYyxpyWEZM8v7vD1d9Tc=; b=CwpBj1WLVIElXaxAJSeHaFk4cdTiEwQGLqqfXh5AQ901EXRHKQIEGPcTZenPF0D5n1 AmeghZyB1qYW3mXmcWP/xQAvHcwdGapbwkRkyLIBppChSAwpGgyiB3tsf3W8xiukAQSO pLkGi2hRqSuO/UDt7vRPfaiqR7nkIceRUKL+SZS1DBA6mWmTrxFyBsfZ5ryvoYjvhPkg BKt9qr1jz/BLhfOs+QSzIVkiDz4nCESenLT5+kJ3IJB+HkaWD3OheQJ+hqbtGFHTkKh6 9Txmgm86Xe05NmRhdlvBvb3MEzXNPKMJRBDEov++m7aP1U7BK9RTtStn/sO2m8ZDJnBu F5nQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=SqEymtK6n4V/F5gwHbu780ADYyxpyWEZM8v7vD1d9Tc=; b=j/69FzFeFDDyNJE/za9fRAmYfbEwR7QoDDd8/E2uuNC57iGGWjXpwL/BF+QjpisGSP IOjf0JEIVjJi0WsbqKcijnZvRSJ+i5N2MAh7W8Tbd5qmx01UFM8j487t1sM4NRU2sUG1 Ku+j4YCTia0da0iZrgCINMNhds2ZBAluT+CfuYsGJ5cbXf6A7MLrqvCMDxRoMSwZ2O59 KHuUlPKybrxn7KiPmhaOpELxAC/S5YTMLnmCMawxzhcT5THzyafTig62Zh6dFXpPzxp0 KZ23+/XX5p1v5X+W0FMwzkgsr6COwaepqjUhK13cBpNjzJmI67yOcDNIgo9HzU7Ohm4d n1mA== Received: by 10.182.144.7 with SMTP id si7mr138076obb.0.1354891793592; Fri, 07 Dec 2012 06:49:53 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.109.71 with SMTP id hq7ls297298obb.60.gmail; Fri, 07 Dec 2012 06:49:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.169.68 with SMTP id ac4mr123388obc.6.1354891793054; Fri, 07 Dec 2012 06:49:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 06:49:51 -0800 (PST) From: jongausib To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: Subject: [lojban] What's real; about the semantic scope of {zasti} and {fatci} MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: so.cool.ogi@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_13_19858045.1354891791992" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_13_19858045.1354891791992 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 coi, =20 I've been reading the BPFK section about gismu issues, but I've got a lot= =20 of questions about gismu definitions for which I didn't find any good=20 answers on this page. For example: =94What is real?=94 isn't exactly a question for the language to answer, b= ut=20 since I'm studying philosophy I've been concerned with what the words=20 {zasti}, {fatci}, {da}, {xanri} and others refer to precisely. (Sorry for= =20 long winded post) I interpret {zasti} to be a very relative concept (and {fatci} to be an=20 extremely anti-relativistic concept). {zasti} is about what the speaker (or= =20 some other x2) mean by =94exists/is real/actual/reality=94 under some given= =20 metaphysics x3. This could be a lot of different things, according to=20 Wikipedia: 1) (exist) something =94in the world one is aware or conscious of through= =20 one's senses=94=20 and that persists independently in one's absence=94. 2) (exist) =94everything that 'is', or more simply, everything=94 3) (exist) =94everything that most people believe in=94 4) (real) =94the state of things as they actually exist, rather than as th= ey=20 may appear or might be imagined.=94 5) (real) =94wider definition, reality includes everything that is and has= =20 been, whether or not it is observable or comprehensible=94 6) (real) =94often restricted solely to that which has physical existence = or=20 has a direct basis in it in the way that thoughts do in the brain.=94 7) (real) =94often contrasted with what is imaginary, delusional, (only) i= n=20 the mind, dreams, what is abstract, what is false, or what is fictional.=20 The truth refers to what is real, while falsity refers to what is not.=20 Fictions are considered not real.=94 8) (fact) =94something that has really occurred or is actually the case = =94 9) (fact) =94Facts may be understood as that which makes a true sentence= =20 true. Facts may also be understood as those things to which a true sentence= =20 refers.=94 10) (absolute) =94unconditional reality which transcends limited,=20 conditional, everyday existence=94 12) (absolute) =93In East Asia, the concept of the Tao, and in South Asia,= =20 the concept of Nirvana is synonymous in description to the attributes of=20 the Absolute as used in the West.=94 11) (being) =94an extremely broad concept encompassing subjective and=20 objective features of reality and existence=94 =20 So when do we use {zasti} and when do we use {fatci}? Could you please look at my examples below, and see if you think they are= =20 right? And please, don't get stuck in some philosophical discussion, but=20 just correct me if my semantic and grammar seems to be wrong. lo pa sance be lo pa tricu poi farlu cu zasti mi va'o je va'onai lo nu mi= =20 tirna sy [def 1] roda cu zasti [def 2] zasti zo'u ro me lo se krici be loi so'e prenu [def 3] simlu fa roda poi bartu lo menli po'e mi zi'e poi dacti ja menli ku'o=20 zasti ije ku'i mi na ka'enai djuno le du'u xukau la'edi'u cu ca'a zasti=20 ijenai mi djuno le du'u xukau la'edi'u cu fatci [def 4] se'o lo li'i sanji senva pe mi cu zmadu ro lo li'i cikna lo ka zasti fi la= =20 gnosis .i xu cu'u do la'edi'u na fatci paunai pe'i lo pa gusta poi bazu se zbasu pu'i lo nu fanmo lo bu'u munje cu zasti= =20 va'o ca ri cu jetnu .i lo xanri be la'edi'u cu ca ku'i zasti .i xu ku'i=20 go'e cu fatci [def 5 och 6] su'o lo orko zasti la l=E9golas lo cfika pe fi'i la t=F3lki,en .i ku'i xu = lo=20 go'i cu na na'e xanri zasti [def 7] ma xe fanva zo'oi la nirvanas fe la lojban .i xu la'edi'u drani se danfu= =20 cu lu lo ka fatci li'u .a lu lo za'i fatci li'u .a lu loi roda fatci xu loi ka prami cu zasti na'ebo lo sucta noi .i xu loi ka prami cu fatci= =20 .i va'i xu loi ka prami cu me da=20 =20 I don't know if I have been able to show any inconsistencies, but my=20 suggestion is to put {fatci} and {zasti} on the =93BPFK: gismu issues=94. *Proposal:*=20 * add =93/is a being=94 in the definition for {zasti}, and add =93be=94 as= a=20 keyword and =93being=94 as a placeword (x1). * delete =93x1 is physical (one sense)=94 in the notes for {zasti}. For so= me=20 people (like me), non-physical things are possible to exist.=20 * add =94Exists physically/is real (one sense) (=3D dairza'i). Is=20 real/non-fictional (=3Dnalfi'aza'i). Is realistic (one sense)=20 (=3Dnalfi'azatmlu)=94 in the notes for {zasti}. * In my opinion, the words =94in the absolute=94 in the definition for {fa= tci}=20 signals that {fatci} shouldn't be used lightly in everyday contexts, but=20 rather a word used in philosophical and religious discussions and such.=20 Perhaps {jetfau}, or just x1 of jetnu, should be a more common word for=20 fact? =20 mu'omi'e jongausib PS: One last thing, what do you think is the appropriate lujvo for=20 ontology? {zatske} or {facyske}, or perhaps {terzatske}? =20 =20 =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lo= jban/-/5ll8SAKZd9oJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. ------=_Part_13_19858045.1354891791992 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

coi,



I've been reading the BPFK section about gismu issues, but I've got a lot of questions about gismu definitions for which I didn't find any good answers on this page. For example:


=94What is real?=94 isn't exactly a question for the language to answer, but since I'm studying philosophy I've been concerned with what the words {zast= i}, {fatci}, {da}, {xanri} and others refer to precisely. (Sorry for long winded post)


I interpret {zasti} to be a very relative concept (and {fatci} to be an extremely anti-relativistic concept). {zasti} is about what the speaker (or some other x2) mean by =94exists/is real/actual/reality=94 under some given metaphysics x3. This could be a lot of different things, according to Wikipedia:


1) (exist) something =94in the world one is aware or conscious of through one's senses=94
and that persists independently in one's absence=94.


2) (exist) =94everything that 'is', or more simply, everything=94


3) (exist) =94everything that most people believe in=94


4) (real) =94the state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or might be imagined.=94


5) (real) =94wider definition, reality includes everything that is and has been, whether or not it is observable or comprehensible=94


6) (real) =94often restricted solely to that which has physical existence or has a direct basis in it in the way that thoughts do in the brain.=94


7) (real) =94often contrasted with what is imaginary, delusional, (only) in the mind, dreams, what is abstract, what is false, or what is fictional. The truth refers to what is real, while falsity refers to what is not. Fictions are considered not real.=94


8) (fact) =94something that has really occurred or is actually the case =94


9) (fact) =94Facts may be understood as that which makes a true sentence true. Facts may also be understood as those things to which a true sentence refers.=94


10) (absolute) =94unconditional reality which transcends limited, conditional, everyday existence=94


12) (absolute) =93In East Asia, the concept of the Tao, and in South Asia, the concept of Nirvana is synonymous in description to the attributes of the Absolute as used in the West.=94


11) (being) =94an extremely broad concept encompassing subjective and objective features of reality and existence=94



So when do we use {zasti} and when do we use {fatci}?

Could you please look at my examples below, and see if you think they are right? And please, don't get stuck in some philosophical discussion, but just correct me if my semantic and grammar seems to be wrong.


lo pa sance be lo pa tricu poi farlu cu zasti mi va'o je va'onai lo nu mi tirna sy [def 1]


roda cu zasti [def 2]


zasti zo'u ro me lo se krici be loi so'e prenu [def 3]


simlu fa roda poi bartu lo menli po'e mi zi'e poi dacti ja menli ku'o zasti ije ku'i mi na ka'enai djuno le du'u xukau la'edi'u cu ca'a zasti ijenai mi djuno le du'u xukau la'edi'u cu fatci [def 4]


se'o lo li'i sanji senva pe mi cu zmadu ro lo li'i cikna lo ka zasti fi la gnosis .i xu cu'u do la'edi'u na fatci paunai


pe'i lo pa gusta poi bazu se zbasu pu'i lo nu fanmo lo bu'u munje cu zasti va'o ca ri cu jetnu .i lo xanri be la'edi'u cu ca ku'i zasti .i xu ku'i go'e cu fatci [def 5 och 6]


su'o lo orko zasti la l=E9golas lo cfika pe fi'i la t=F3lki,en .i ku'i xu lo go'i cu na na'e xanri zasti [def 7]


ma xe fanva zo'oi la nirvanas fe la lojban .i xu la'edi'u drani se danfu cu lu lo ka fatci li'u .a lu lo za'i fatci li'u .a lu loi roda fatci


xu loi ka prami cu zasti na'ebo lo sucta noi .i xu loi ka prami cu fatci .i va'i xu loi ka prami cu me da=20



I don't know if I have been able to show any inconsistencies, but my suggestion is to put {fatci} and {zasti} on the =93BPFK: gismu issues=94.


Proposa= l:


* add =93/= is a being=94 in the definition for {zasti}, and add =93be=94 as a keyword and =93being=94 as a placeword (x1).


* delete =93x1 is physical (one sense)=94 in the notes for {zasti}. For some people (like me), non-physical things are possible to exist.=20


* add =94Exists physically/is real (one sense) (=3D dairza'i). Is real/non-ficti= onal (=3Dnalfi'aza'i). Is realistic (one sense) (=3Dnalfi'azatmlu)=94 in the notes for {zasti}.


* In my opinion, the words =94in the absolute=94 in the definition for {fatci} signals that {fatci} shouldn't be used lightly in everyday contexts, but rather a word used in philosophical and religious discussions and such. Perhaps {jetfau}, or just x1 of jetnu, should be a more common word for fact?



mu'omi= 'e jongausib


PS: One last thing, what do you think is the appropriate lujvo for ontology?
{zatske} or {facyske}, or perhaps {terzatske}?





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