3. Saying that language doesn't have a say= in what is real is deciding the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (several caveats he= re), which is one of the things Lojban is supposed to test, so we don't wan= t to settle matters too early on.

4. {xanri} is possibly some= thing else again, in that the imaginary for one person may be real for anot= her -- or for the one at another time. This a psychological more than= a factual matter.

I agree. And also, the referent of what perso= n x does imagine is xanri x1, and may not exist other than as the mental en= tity itself ({pensi}, {sidbo}, {menli pruce} etc).

5. Lojban doesn't have a word for being in the general sense, except, in exte= nsion, the All. Doing Lojban metatheory in Lojban is occasionally a p= ain.

(being) =94an extremely broad concept encompassing su= bjective and objective features of reality and existence=94 (wikipedia).

A very b= road conecept of existence sounds for me as {zasti}. My proposal is ther= efore to add "/(to be)" in the definition for {zasti}.
And/or use mo= re sepcific philosophical terms for being, like german "dasein", as fu'ivla= .

=

=

From: jongausib &= lt;so.co...@gmail.com>
To: loj...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 7, 2012 8:49 AM
Subject: [lojban] What's real; ab= out the semantic scope of {zasti} and {fatci}

coi,

I've been reading the BPFK section about gismu issues, but I've got a lot of questions about gismu definitions for which I didn't find any good answers on this page. For example:

=94What is real?=94 isn't exactly a question for the language to answer, but since I'm studying philosophy I've been concerned with what the words {zast= i}, {fatci}, {da}, {xanri} and others refer to precisely. (Sorry for long winded post)

I interpret {zasti} to be a very relative concept (and {fatci} to be an extremely anti-relativistic concept). {zasti} is about what the speaker (or some other x2) mean by =94exists/is real/actual/reality=94 under some given metaphysics x3. This could be a lot of different things, according to Wikipedia:

1) (exist) something =94in the world one is aware or conscious of through one's senses=94
and that persists independently in one's absence=94.

2) (exist) =94everything that 'is', or more simply, everything=94

3) (exist) =94everything that most people believe in=94

4) (real) =94the state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or might be imagined.=94

5) (real) =94wider definition, reality includes everything that is and has been, whether or not it is observable or comprehensible=94

6) (real) =94often restricted solely to that which has physical existence or has a direct basis in it in the way that thoughts do in the brain.=94

7) (real) =94often contrasted with what is imaginary, delusional, (only) in the mind, dreams, what is abstract, what is false, or what is fictional. The truth refers to what is real, while falsity refers to what is not. Fictions are considered not real.=94

8) (fact) =94something that has really occurred or is actually the case =94

9) (fact) =94Facts may be understood as that which makes a true sentence true. Facts may also be understood as those things to which a true sentence refers.=94

10) (absolute) =94unconditional reality which transcends limited, conditional, everyday existence=94

12) (absolute) =93In East Asia, the concept of the Tao, and in South Asia, the concept of Nirvana is synonymous in description to the attributes of the Absolute as used in the West.=94

11) (being) =94an extremely broad concept encompassing subjective and objective features of reality and existence=94

So when do we use {zasti} and when do we use {fatci}?

Could you please look at my examples below, and see if you think they are right? And please, don't get stuck in some philosophical discussion, but just correct me if my semantic and grammar seems to be wrong.

lo pa sance be lo pa tricu poi farlu cu zasti mi va'o je va'onai lo nu mi tirna sy [def 1]

roda cu zasti [def 2]

zasti zo'u ro me lo se krici be loi so'e prenu [def 3]

simlu fa roda poi bartu lo menli po'e mi zi'e poi dacti ja menli ku'o zasti ije ku'i mi na ka'enai djuno le du'u xukau la'edi'u cu ca'a zasti ijenai mi djuno le du'u xukau la'edi'u cu fatci [def 4]

se'o lo li'i sanji senva pe mi cu zmadu ro lo li'i cikna lo ka zasti fi la gnosis .i xu cu'u do la'edi'u na fatci paunai

pe'i lo pa gusta poi bazu se zbasu pu'i lo nu fanmo lo bu'u munje cu zasti va'o ca ri cu jetnu .i lo xanri be la'edi'u cu ca ku'i zasti .i xu ku'i go'e cu fatci [def 5 och 6]

su'o lo orko zasti la l=E9golas lo cfika pe fi'i la t=F3lki,en .i ku'i xu lo go'i cu na na'e xanri zasti [def 7]

ma xe fanva zo'oi la nirvanas fe la lojban .i xu la'edi'u drani se danfu cu lu lo ka fatci li'u .a lu lo za'i fatci li'u .a lu loi roda fatci

xu loi ka prami cu zasti na'ebo lo sucta noi .i xu loi ka prami cu fatci .i va'i xu loi ka prami cu me da=20

I don't know if I have been able to show any inconsistencies, but my suggestion is to put {fatci} and {zasti} on the =93BPFK: gismu issues=94.

Proposal:

* add =93/is a being=94 in the definition for {zasti}, and add =93be=94 as a keyword and =93being=94 as a placeword (x1).

* delete =93x_{1
is physical (one sense)=94 in the notes for {zasti}. For some people
(like me), non-physical things are possible to exist.=20}

* add =94Exists physically/is real (one sense) (=3D dairza'i). Is real/non-fictional (=3Dnalfi'aza'i). Is realistic (one sense) (=3Dnalfi'azatmlu)=94 in the notes for {zasti}.

* In my opinion, the words =94in the absolute=94 in the definition for {fatci} signals that {fatci} shouldn't be used lightly in everyday contexts, but rather a word used in philosophical and religious discussions and such. Perhaps {jetfau}, or just x1 of jetnu, should be a more common word for fact?

= mu'omi'e jongausib

PS: One last thing, what do you think is the appropriate lujvo for ontology? {zatske} or {facyske}, or perhaps {terzatske}?

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