Received: from mail-pa0-f61.google.com ([209.85.220.61]:63487) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TkbgZ-0004Ue-J3; Mon, 17 Dec 2012 06:28:59 -0800 Received: by mail-pa0-f61.google.com with SMTP id bg2sf3947453pad.16 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2012 06:28:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=yajRz8gbs8G5/TNBvbcvOdgHLbpkiR83TzvpP+Wvtb8=; b=Ws3q1DJ8Omcn3VQVh/dT+gFiRANhBK7DIY7UCbtUeRNzw8KA+j+m396A/oMEJvj1RH ZXSkV2krc1OzdT34r4qLNfOeD+s0f3/sg1TRrdagY27/qHaMi9eAm67al1M+y5Aq/r4y cot58C9kfYPCPdD+AflYNA3DCofY+/YLRJIZMyh9aVPRnOHd5mNKmIIv00/6kRaHWCi4 8TVOw2qJYFr4T4MU7BA1auNfY6PrGY5xPV5WYhuP/XB7BWyMosJSL1T1nLyMWqzfJUdi H2pyHG6n52i3dPPUd9ClpdcXHtggkq66TJ6XxvyfQMYyZDCaqLB6vYnBo3+coh+A+Z4r z8kQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=yajRz8gbs8G5/TNBvbcvOdgHLbpkiR83TzvpP+Wvtb8=; b=BUOw/F1qgKWNJ6x1ZplsTjPXlXysXdZ7SKGPiiA4XVpbjxpIwE0MrxjVQr+EONBIRX ZiuGxWawY9j5jKF6XMjyCg1Pk9dwBuSs7Qw3vYNy2DKOVEY5qL6sfKL2bzl9lC1Jw6Xh 7GOlNjex0jmICaOlfP268wwSXisVVl9lyQ99u2EXyNMdMd4krQGuYAwLG3pnxnww1XPu t6gdMcHKxlXjJu3xidmT5e8trnVqjdtYlRrjBpHRcTl9p733/Q0zAX6nqaC/SVsaqWF1 PmTd/2sOUsD6y+DcXZa5wY2OLkjD7LovW62lM0ggyyKS2ival/hZCMED628zNRFvdSSd QK+A== Received: by 10.49.94.129 with SMTP id dc1mr2392446qeb.22.1355754525089; Mon, 17 Dec 2012 06:28:45 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.35.74 with SMTP id f10ls2207505qej.48.gmail; Mon, 17 Dec 2012 06:28:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.49.60.40 with SMTP id e8mr2339710qer.40.1355754523763; Mon, 17 Dec 2012 06:28:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 06:28:43 -0800 (PST) From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [lojban] {cpedu} places vs. {minde, fraxu} etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_57_31904765.1355754523155" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_57_31904765.1355754523155 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Tuesday, November 13, 2012 12:34:56 AM UTC+4, gejyspa wrote: > > If you think of x2 as an object (which it can be), you will see that cpedu > is actually in the lebna/cpacu/(te) dunda/benji/(te)mrilu, etc.... family. > The object changing hands being in the x2 spot, and the x3 spot being the > other person involved in the transaction. It's actually pikci which is the > minde family. > Yes, that's what bothers me. Why do we have {se ckire} being the addressee but {te ciksi} being the addressee. It's very hard to remember, non-intuitive etc. > --gejyspa > > > > On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 8:28 AM, la gleki > > wrote: > >> *cpedu *- x1 requests/asks/petitions/solicits for x2 of/from x3 in >> manner/form x4. >> *minde *- x1 issues commands/orders to x2 for result x3 (event/state) to >> happen; x3 is commanded to occur. >> >> Although two gismu are obviously semantically close to each other they >> differ in the order of arguments. >> Is it just a historical quirk? >> >> I guess this is the "error" of {cpedu} cuz other similar gismu follow the >> structure of {minde}. >> >> *fraxu *- x1 forgives x2 for event/state/activity x3. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/GN8TBZ74oIAJ. >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com >> . >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/xfuzoHfZXzgJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. ------=_Part_57_31904765.1355754523155 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Tuesday, November 13, 2012 12:34:56 AM UTC+4, gejyspa wrote:
If you think of x= 2 as an object (which it can be), you will see that cpedu is actually in th= e lebna/cpacu/(te) dunda/benji/(te)mrilu, etc.... family.  The object = changing hands being in the x2 spot, and the x3 spot being the other person= involved in the transaction.  It's actually pikci which is the minde = family.

Yes, that's what bothers me.<= /div>
Why do we have
{se ckire} being the addressee but
=
{te ciksi} being the addressee.

It's very har= d to remember, non-intuitive etc.


       --gejyspa



On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 8:28 AM, l= a gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wr= ote:
cpedu - x1 requests/asks/petitio= ns/solicits for x2 of/from x3 in manner/form x4.
minde -&nb= sp;x1 issues commands/orders to x2 for result x3 (event/state) to happen; x= 3 is commanded to occur.

Although two gismu are obviously semantically close to = each other they differ in the order of arguments.
Is it just a hi= storical quirk?

I guess this is the "error" of {cp= edu} cuz other similar gismu follow the structure of {minde}.

fraxu - x1 forgives x2 for event/state/acti= vity x3.

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