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Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 08:23:45 -0700
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Subject: Re: [lojban] {cpedu} places vs. {minde, fraxu} etc.
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
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On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 8:22 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 7:28 AM, la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, November 13, 2012 12:34:56 AM UTC+4, gejyspa wrote:
>>>
>>> If you think of x2 as an object (which it can be), you will see that
>>> cpedu is actually in the lebna/cpacu/(te) dunda/benji/(te)mrilu, etc....
>>> family.  The object changing hands being in the x2 spot, and the x3 spot
>>> being the other person involved in the transaction.  It's actually pikci
>>> which is the minde family.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, that's what bothers me.
>> Why do we have
>> {se ckire} being the addressee but
>> {te ciksi} being the addressee.
>>
>> It's very hard to remember, non-intuitive etc.
>>
>
> You'd have to ask the people who came up with the definitions in the first
> place, but I doubt they could answer you, either. i doubt any intention was
> payed to regularity among "families" of gismu, especially considering how
> many gismu have irregular places within their family. (I don't recall the
> exact one, but I believe the first irregular gismu I came across was one of
> the metric measurements, mass, maybe?)
>

It is my hope that at some very near future point this irregularity issue
if addressed and fixed. Since it's always with the least used places, I
don't believe making the irregular gismu regular would have much of an
impact on historical works.


>>>        --gejyspa
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 8:28 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> *cpedu *- x1 requests/asks/petitions/**solicits for x2 of/from x3 in
>>>> manner/form x4.
>>>> *minde *- x1 issues commands/orders to x2 for result x3 (event/state)
>>>> to happen; x3 is commanded to occur.
>>>>
>>>> Although two gismu are obviously semantically close to each other they
>>>> differ in the order of arguments.
>>>> Is it just a historical quirk?
>>>>
>>>> I guess this is the "error" of {cpedu} cuz other similar gismu follow
>>>> the structure of {minde}.
>>>>
>>>> *fraxu *- x1 forgives x2 for event/state/activity x3.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> Groups "lojban" group.
>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/**
>>>> msg/lojban/-/GN8TBZ74oIAJ<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/GN8TBZ74oIAJ>
>>>> .
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>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+un...@**
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>>>>
>>>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**
>>>> group/lojban?hl=en <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en>.
>>>>
>>>
>>>  --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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>>
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
>


-- 
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 8:22 AM, Jonathan Jones =
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank=
">eyeonus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"im">On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 7:28 A=
M, la gleki <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.=
com" target=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div>On Tuesday, November 13, 2012 12:34:56 AM UTC+4, gejyspa wrote:<blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:=
1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">If you think of x2 as an =
object (which it can be), you will see that cpedu is actually in the lebna/=
cpacu/(te) dunda/benji/(te)mrilu, etc.... family. =A0The object changing ha=
nds being in the x2 spot, and the x3 spot being the other person involved i=
n the transaction. =A0It&#39;s actually pikci which is the minde family.</d=
iv>

</blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>Yes, that&#39;s what bothers me.</di=
v><div>Why do we have</div><div>{se ckire} being the addressee but</div><di=
v>{te ciksi} being the addressee.</div><div><br></div><div>It&#39;s very ha=
rd to remember, non-intuitive etc.</div>

</blockquote></div><div><br>You&#39;d have to ask the people who came up wi=
th the definitions in the first place, but I doubt they could answer you, e=
ither. i doubt any intention was payed to regularity among &quot;families&q=
uot; of gismu, especially considering how many gismu have irregular places =
within their family. (I don&#39;t recall the exact one, but I believe the f=
irst irregular gismu I came across was one of the metric measurements, mass=
, maybe?)<br>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br>It is my hope that at some very near futu=
re point this irregularity issue if addressed and fixed. Since it&#39;s alw=
ays with the least used places, I don&#39;t believe making the irregular gi=
smu regular would have much of an impact on historical works.<br>
<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>
</div><div class=3D"im"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div></div><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>
<br></div><div>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa</div><div><br></div><div><div><br><=
br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 8:28 AM, la gleki=
 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a>gleki.is...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><b>cpedu </b>-=A0x1 requests/asks=
/petitions/<u></u>solicits for x2 of/from x3 in manner/form x4.<div>
<b>minde </b>-=A0x1 issues commands/orders to x2 for result x3 (event/state=
) to happen; x3 is commanded to occur.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Although two gismu are obviously semantically close to =
each other they differ in the order of arguments.</div><div>Is it just a hi=
storical quirk?</div><div><br></div><div>I guess this is the &quot;error&qu=
ot; of {cpedu} cuz other similar gismu follow the structure of {minde}.</di=
v>


<div><br></div><div><b>fraxu </b>-=A0x1 forgives x2 for event/state/activit=
y x3.</div></div><span><font color=3D"#888888"><div>

<p></p>

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p/lojban?hl=3Den</a>.<br>


</div></font></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>
</blockquote><div>

<p></p>

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</div></div></blockquote></div></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"=
#888888"><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e .aionys.<br><br=
>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo&#39=
;o<br>
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )<br>
<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o =
mi&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi=
.luk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father=
. :D )<br>
<br>

<p></p>

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