Received: from mail-gg0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]:45473) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Tkd40-0005Vy-0N; Mon, 17 Dec 2012 07:57:18 -0800 Received: by mail-gg0-f189.google.com with SMTP id q1sf3983099ggm.16 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2012 07:57:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=WXPm8QgLqelROvWkrWiNB0EO/3aczgU50apIu9I80Yc=; b=EIASjDFSsfErfgZqiE8z5lSKXs4J6u28YqR1G02bRW0/Js85UYIqItwrUs2UBJwXui oMjrPT8r27ZV5TrPSycZ4U1AW07qcpuLsOCiE1vPqvCvagk1ZAibkdX5V/CIjSj4X1/A 2lUQGvbafQED+Q2RonNP8RMw2tDt07jrMwQ8+V54rH/aFl6+ZhAElobbtKmkGcZ9IxbO YEpFECUxmePkEdswPxH3M3whoCq5J6yAVTmToFYVlWk+qZXPwz/UPmfCUgTFtwNE28CH D8B1HoZp/6GwF7l6BODRvsCPnPRJ198c0BuXIvycyFt3bmtIvmvMwVRUahehvJ480Ccd kYvA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=WXPm8QgLqelROvWkrWiNB0EO/3aczgU50apIu9I80Yc=; b=biugeSggbRVRZ8Jwp9jStT0A1HAoo8UFD3dcsnuOwASW5WAxoMz60vxZ2mrpzF2b/M hbBq+T2rUB+jipmHVNmwxlsyUh1Vz7TWpyZgWkov/Z7vO//mlrACPypvhaVL+H9d45Ij Pi9Vol5l8///caaZA6DdI8AQJuy8NGkv6yzgRfGjDAJgTdNZ65056RDqisYua/whJiTC +21SqDnBRrJE5k654DGCjEHoqK+AqtYt1EYOnbvaG11sl++u9Of0U4w9weBzjGcNiZul BXl/lFv9nnxiX4L5myAm7tjbKCw6yJUxxHLEMHZj4jWPDjeDRU/Xx40Ql8Ms5ZQOJgwN sikA== Received: by 10.182.159.37 with SMTP id wz5mr912895obb.1.1355759821331; Mon, 17 Dec 2012 07:57:01 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.151.70 with SMTP id uo6ls823409obb.69.gmail; Mon, 17 Dec 2012 07:57:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.169.68 with SMTP id ac4mr830720obc.6.1355759820672; Mon, 17 Dec 2012 07:57:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 07:56:59 -0800 (PST) From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <639f7535-3e55-457d-b278-5ab3eb7c367b@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References:

Subject: Re: [lojban] {cpedu} places vs. {minde, fraxu} etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_306_866631.1355759819768" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_306_866631.1355759819768 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Monday, December 17, 2012 7:23:45 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 8:22 AM, Jonathan Jones > > wrote: > >> On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 7:28 AM, la gleki >> > wrote: >> >>> On Tuesday, November 13, 2012 12:34:56 AM UTC+4, gejyspa wrote: >>>> >>>> If you think of x2 as an object (which it can be), you will see that >>>> cpedu is actually in the lebna/cpacu/(te) dunda/benji/(te)mrilu, etc.... >>>> family. The object changing hands being in the x2 spot, and the x3 spot >>>> being the other person involved in the transaction. It's actually pikci >>>> which is the minde family. >>>> >>> >>> Yes, that's what bothers me. >>> Why do we have >>> {se ckire} being the addressee but >>> {te ciksi} being the addressee. >>> >>> It's very hard to remember, non-intuitive etc. >>> >> >> You'd have to ask the people who came up with the definitions in the >> first place, but I doubt they could answer you, either. i doubt any >> intention was payed to regularity among "families" of gismu, especially >> considering how many gismu have irregular places within their family. (I >> don't recall the exact one, but I believe the first irregular gismu I came >> across was one of the metric measurements, mass, maybe?) >> > > It is my hope that at some very near future point this irregularity issue > if addressed and fixed. Since it's always with the least used places, I > don't believe making the irregular gismu regular would have much of an > impact on historical works. > It won't be that easy. {mi cpedu do lo nu dunda lo jdini} is *na smudra *although will for sure be perfectly understood by everyone. You can't confuse abstractions with objects. Just as {mi pikci do lo nu dunda lo jdini} is *smudra.* However, such playing with places breaks the meaning of {se cpedu}. We'll have to avoid sumti-raising all the time in order to avoid ambiguity in it's worst sense of polysemy (you will never know whether your lojbo friend has a habit of changing place structure or not). The only reasonable two alternative solutions would be 1. Invent new gismu with the new place structure and slowly forget old ones (lojbanic corpus of texts can be automatically converted) 2. Split individual places into separate gismu (like "under conditions" is to be replaced by {va'o}) and invent new gismu for those fragments of older gismu. Or just ignore superfluous places whenever possible (if "by standard" is the last place, ignore it. If not invent a new gismu to replace the old one). Well, enough herecy for today. Where is an appropriate quote from our shepherd? *2010.II.25 Broca: To expand on my earlier comment about conservatism and you and stuff, I want Lojbanists to be active in moving the language towards awesome and away from things they hate. I don't want to throw out the language we have, by any means (if I wanted that, I'd just go make a new one). I want excellent Lojbanists like you to never again have to say "I hate that aspect of the language; it's dumb. But I support it anyways." I think ...* By the way, who is Broca? > >>>> --gejyspa >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 8:28 AM, la gleki wrote: >>>> >>>>> *cpedu *- x1 requests/asks/petitions/**solicits for x2 of/from x3 in >>>>> manner/form x4. >>>>> *minde *- x1 issues commands/orders to x2 for result x3 (event/state) >>>>> to happen; x3 is commanded to occur. >>>>> >>>>> Although two gismu are obviously semantically close to each other they >>>>> differ in the order of arguments. >>>>> Is it just a historical quirk? >>>>> >>>>> I guess this is the "error" of {cpedu} cuz other similar gismu follow >>>>> the structure of {minde}. >>>>> >>>>> *fraxu *- x1 forgives x2 for event/state/activity x3. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/* >>>>> *msg/lojban/-/GN8TBZ74oIAJ >>>>> . >>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+un...@** >>>>> googlegroups.com. >>>>> >>>>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** >>>>> group/lojban?hl=en . >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/xfuzoHfZXzgJ. >>> >>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/I8JL2O5S0vkJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. ------=_Part_306_866631.1355759819768 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Monday, December 17, 2012 7:23:45 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:

On Mon, De= c 17, 2012 at 8:22 AM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gm= ail.com> wrote:

On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 7:28 AM, la gleki <= span dir=3D"ltr"><gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On Tuesday, November 13, 2012 12:34:56 AM UTC+4, gejyspa wrote:
If you think of x2 as an = object (which it can be), you will see that cpedu is actually in the lebna/= cpacu/(te) dunda/benji/(te)mrilu, etc.... family. The object changing= hands being in the x2 spot, and the x3 spot being the other person involve= d in the transaction. It's actually pikci which is the minde family.<= /div>

Yes, that's what bothers me.

Why do we have

{se ckire} being the addressee but

{t= e ciksi} being the addressee.

It's very hard to re= member, non-intuitive etc.

You'd have to ask the people who came up with t= he definitions in the first place, but I doubt they could answer you, eithe= r. i doubt any intention was payed to regularity among "families" of gismu,= especially considering how many gismu have irregular places within their f= amily. (I don't recall the exact one, but I believe the first irregular gis= mu I came across was one of the metric measurements, mass, maybe?)

It is my hope that at some very near futu= re point this irregularity issue if addressed and fixed. Since it's always = with the least used places, I don't believe making the irregular gismu regu= lar would have much of an impact on historical works.

It won't be that easy.

{mi cpedu do lo= nu dunda lo jdini} is na smudra although will for sure be perfectly= understood by everyone. You can't confuse abstractions with objects.
Ju= st as {mi pikci do lo nu dunda lo jdini} is smudra.

Howeve= r, such playing with places breaks the meaning of {se cpedu}. We'll have to= avoid sumti-raising all the time in order to avoid ambiguity in it's = worst sense of polysemy (you will never know whether your lojbo friend has = a habit of changing place structure or not).

The o= nly reasonable two alternative solutions would be

1. Invent= new gismu with the new place structure and slowly forget old ones (lojbani= c corpus of texts can be automatically converted)
2. Split individual pl= aces into separate gismu (like "under conditions" is to be replaced by {va'= o}) and invent new gismu for those fragments of older gismu. Or just ignore= superfluous places whenever possible (if "by standard" is the last place, = ignore it. If not invent a new gismu to replace the old one).

Well, = enough herecy for today. Where is an appropriate quote from our shepherd?

2010.II.25 <rlpowell> Broca: To expand on my earlier comment about= conservatism and you and stuff, I want Lojbanists to be active in moving t= he language towards awesome and away from things they hate. I don't w= ant to throw out the language we have, by any means (if I wanted that, I'd = just go make a new one). I want excellent Lojbanists like you to neve= r again have to say "I hate that aspect of the language; it's dumb. B= ut I support it anyways." I think ...

By the way, who is Broca?

--gejyspa

On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 8:28 AM, l= a gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote= :

cpedu - x1 requests/a= sks/petitions/solicits for x2 of/from x3 in manner/form x4. minde - x1 issues commands/orders to x2 for result x3 (event/st= ate) to happen; x3 is commanded to occur.

Although two gismu are obviously semantically close to = each other they differ in the order of arguments.
Is it just a hi= storical quirk?

I guess this is the "error" of {cp= edu} cuz other similar gismu follow the structure of {minde}.

fraxu - x1 forgives x2 for event/state/acti= vity x3.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com= /d/msg/lojban/-/GN8TBZ74oIAJ.
=20 To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+un...@google= groups.com.

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/grou= p/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com= /d/msg/lojban/-/xfuzoHfZXzgJ.

=20 To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+un...@googl= egroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/= lojban?hl=3Den.

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pi= lno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
mu'o mi'e= .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi pat= fu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/I8= JL2O5S0vkJ.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
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